HP Blackbird 002: Back in Black
by Jarred Walton on September 12, 2007 12:00 PM EST- Posted in
- Systems
Initial Thoughts
We've now been playing around with HP's Blackbird 002 for almost a week, and while we aren't ready to come to any final conclusions we do have some thoughts on the design as a whole. There are a lot of things to like about the Blackbird, as well as some areas that could maybe use improvements. We'll start with the good things.
First, it's clear that VoodooPC's influence has helped HP to create what is arguably the most exciting design they have ever released. The design and styling exude an enthusiasm for computer hardware that you rarely see with large OEMs. Not everyone needs or wants that kind of computer, but we're happy to see that at least some people at HP are excited about technology. What we would like to see now is for the same level of enthusiasm to extend downward into their midrange and entry level offerings. We don't mean that they all need to be 70 pound wedge-shaped computers capable of supporting an elephant, but there's definitely room for more creative designs in the $500-$1500 market.
The performance offered by the Blackbird 002 is also extremely impressive, easily ranking as one of the fastest systems we have ever used. However, it accomplishes that through brute force in some respects. Grab the fastest processor and graphics cards currently available, pick up a top-end motherboard, and slap it all into a case with a hefty power supply; add water cooling and sprinkle on a bit of overclocking, and you've basically got performance that would match the Blackbird 002. Making sure everything runs stable with all that is no small task, however, and considering the cost involved some people might prefer to spend a bit more and let someone else do the R&D, set up, and support.
We have something of a love-hate relationship with the case. On the one hand, it's extremely well-made and durable. The hinges are sturdy, the tool-less features make it extremely easy to work with, and yes we even think it's pretty cool looking. If you were a small mouse, you could probably also use it as a nuclear bomb shelter in a pinch. The drawback of course is that it's extremely heavy. This is not the type of system that you want to move around on a regular basis. If you can find a nice location in your house where you can put it and not have to worry about moving it around, that would be best. You'll still need to drag it out every once in awhile to give it a cleaning, of course - or at least you will if you want it to continue functioning properly.
Besides the size, what other concerns do we have with the system? The overclocking for one is a bit of a difficult call. We would say that this system is 99.9% stable, but we still encountered a few crashes and difficulties. Our own experience with Intel's quad-core processors is that it's truly difficult to get them beyond 3.5 GHz and still maintain absolute stability. Depending on what applications you run, that may or may not be a problem. Some of the problems are clearly the result of drivers and/or BIOS maturity, or perhaps Windows Vista just doing things in a way we're not expecting. We did experience at least three crashes during the past week - two during the past 12 hours as we tried to finish this review. Besides a system crash that occurred during the night which may or may not be related to the overclocked processor, Company of Heroes hard-locked the system once requiring a reset, and QuickTime 7.2 caused a blue screen. The last two are more likely related to drivers or other software behaving oddly, but that's still three more crashes than we experienced on all of the other systems we've had running during the past week. We're not sure how close the HP BIOS is to the latest standard ASUS Striker BIOS, but ASUS has been updating the BIOS pretty regularly so it could be a simple matter of some BIOS tweaks.
Price is of course another serious stumbling block. Most of us can't afford to spend this much money on a computer, no matter how fast it is. We're still waiting for details on what exactly customers can get with the $2500 model, but the $5500 model we were sent is a lesson in extravagance. In some areas, it's almost as if HP included new technology simply for the sake of having the "best" - whether or not the hardware is actually better than other options. The graphics cards for instance are the latest 1GB HD 2900 XT models. For those who have difficulty with math, that means that between the two graphics cards you have as much memory as the rest of the system. Overkill? Yeah, we think so too. Picking up a couple GeForce 8800 GTX cards instead might end up saving some money and improving performance at the same time, although without specific testing of such a configuration we can't say for sure. Regardless, the number of applications that can actually benefit from 1GB 2900 XT cards instead of the regular 512MB versions must be extremely limited.
Some of our complaints aren't really HP's fault. Ideally, what we would like to see in a cutting-edge computer like this would be a minimum of 4GB of memory. Along with the memory, we would like a 64-bit operating system. We would also want the operating system, drivers, applications, etc. to all work well and not have any conflicts or other random issues. Hopefully Windows Vista will get us to that point in the next year or so, but while there are many things you can now do in 64-bit Windows Vista, there are still problems that crop up with certain applications that we would just as soon avoid for a little longer.
Like its namesake, the Blackbird 002 is an incredible piece of hardware that is capable of setting new speed records. This is about as cutting edge as computer hardware gets. The price of admittance for such an exclusive system is more than we can justify, but there are people out there who will certainly be willing to pay in order to have "the best". If you have the money and inclination to spend it on a computer, the Blackbird 002 is certainly one of the more interesting options currently available. Unlike the Air Force, we expect that HP will manufacture and sell far more than 32 Blackbirds, and even better you don't have to have a pilot's license in order to take one for a ride. Too bad you don't actually get to outrun any SAMs....
We've now been playing around with HP's Blackbird 002 for almost a week, and while we aren't ready to come to any final conclusions we do have some thoughts on the design as a whole. There are a lot of things to like about the Blackbird, as well as some areas that could maybe use improvements. We'll start with the good things.
First, it's clear that VoodooPC's influence has helped HP to create what is arguably the most exciting design they have ever released. The design and styling exude an enthusiasm for computer hardware that you rarely see with large OEMs. Not everyone needs or wants that kind of computer, but we're happy to see that at least some people at HP are excited about technology. What we would like to see now is for the same level of enthusiasm to extend downward into their midrange and entry level offerings. We don't mean that they all need to be 70 pound wedge-shaped computers capable of supporting an elephant, but there's definitely room for more creative designs in the $500-$1500 market.
The performance offered by the Blackbird 002 is also extremely impressive, easily ranking as one of the fastest systems we have ever used. However, it accomplishes that through brute force in some respects. Grab the fastest processor and graphics cards currently available, pick up a top-end motherboard, and slap it all into a case with a hefty power supply; add water cooling and sprinkle on a bit of overclocking, and you've basically got performance that would match the Blackbird 002. Making sure everything runs stable with all that is no small task, however, and considering the cost involved some people might prefer to spend a bit more and let someone else do the R&D, set up, and support.
We have something of a love-hate relationship with the case. On the one hand, it's extremely well-made and durable. The hinges are sturdy, the tool-less features make it extremely easy to work with, and yes we even think it's pretty cool looking. If you were a small mouse, you could probably also use it as a nuclear bomb shelter in a pinch. The drawback of course is that it's extremely heavy. This is not the type of system that you want to move around on a regular basis. If you can find a nice location in your house where you can put it and not have to worry about moving it around, that would be best. You'll still need to drag it out every once in awhile to give it a cleaning, of course - or at least you will if you want it to continue functioning properly.
Besides the size, what other concerns do we have with the system? The overclocking for one is a bit of a difficult call. We would say that this system is 99.9% stable, but we still encountered a few crashes and difficulties. Our own experience with Intel's quad-core processors is that it's truly difficult to get them beyond 3.5 GHz and still maintain absolute stability. Depending on what applications you run, that may or may not be a problem. Some of the problems are clearly the result of drivers and/or BIOS maturity, or perhaps Windows Vista just doing things in a way we're not expecting. We did experience at least three crashes during the past week - two during the past 12 hours as we tried to finish this review. Besides a system crash that occurred during the night which may or may not be related to the overclocked processor, Company of Heroes hard-locked the system once requiring a reset, and QuickTime 7.2 caused a blue screen. The last two are more likely related to drivers or other software behaving oddly, but that's still three more crashes than we experienced on all of the other systems we've had running during the past week. We're not sure how close the HP BIOS is to the latest standard ASUS Striker BIOS, but ASUS has been updating the BIOS pretty regularly so it could be a simple matter of some BIOS tweaks.
Price is of course another serious stumbling block. Most of us can't afford to spend this much money on a computer, no matter how fast it is. We're still waiting for details on what exactly customers can get with the $2500 model, but the $5500 model we were sent is a lesson in extravagance. In some areas, it's almost as if HP included new technology simply for the sake of having the "best" - whether or not the hardware is actually better than other options. The graphics cards for instance are the latest 1GB HD 2900 XT models. For those who have difficulty with math, that means that between the two graphics cards you have as much memory as the rest of the system. Overkill? Yeah, we think so too. Picking up a couple GeForce 8800 GTX cards instead might end up saving some money and improving performance at the same time, although without specific testing of such a configuration we can't say for sure. Regardless, the number of applications that can actually benefit from 1GB 2900 XT cards instead of the regular 512MB versions must be extremely limited.
Some of our complaints aren't really HP's fault. Ideally, what we would like to see in a cutting-edge computer like this would be a minimum of 4GB of memory. Along with the memory, we would like a 64-bit operating system. We would also want the operating system, drivers, applications, etc. to all work well and not have any conflicts or other random issues. Hopefully Windows Vista will get us to that point in the next year or so, but while there are many things you can now do in 64-bit Windows Vista, there are still problems that crop up with certain applications that we would just as soon avoid for a little longer.
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Like its namesake, the Blackbird 002 is an incredible piece of hardware that is capable of setting new speed records. This is about as cutting edge as computer hardware gets. The price of admittance for such an exclusive system is more than we can justify, but there are people out there who will certainly be willing to pay in order to have "the best". If you have the money and inclination to spend it on a computer, the Blackbird 002 is certainly one of the more interesting options currently available. Unlike the Air Force, we expect that HP will manufacture and sell far more than 32 Blackbirds, and even better you don't have to have a pilot's license in order to take one for a ride. Too bad you don't actually get to outrun any SAMs....
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JarredWalton - Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - link
You have to do a bit more accurate math on the cost. Yes, it's still expensive, but it's not at all a 2-3X mark up.Crazy ATX Case: I'd say this is easily a $500 case. Not that most people need it, but this is not some flimsy plastic thing.
1100W PSU: It looks like this might be a TOPOWER 1100W PSU (it says "TOP-1100W DVT" on a sticker). The 1000W TOPOWER at Newegg costs $330 shipped, so call this on $350.
QX6850: $1200, not overclocked
ASUS Striker: $300
2 x 1GB 2900 XT: $1000
2x1GB Corsair Dominator 8500: $210
160GB Raptor: $190 (technically 10GB more than the normal 150GB Raptors)
750GB Seagate: $210
Logitech G11: $55
Logitech G5: $60
Asetek cooling: $400 for this particular kit seems likely
Blu-ray/HD drive: $880 (Yup, look up the GGW-H10NI - crazy!)
DVDR slot load: $40
Total for parts alone: $4200, and that's going by cheapest online prices.
Still expensive, still a ~50% markup, but then the factory overclock with warranty is worth at least something, right? Anyway, I'm not saying it's a great deal, but if someone told me they wanted me to build them a system like this? Yeah, I'd probably charge at least $1000 to do it, just because I'd want to have some extra for the invariable support costs. "My OC'ed computer just crashed...."
jonnyGURU - Friday, September 14, 2007 - link
Actually, the Blackbird's 1100W is based on Topower's 1200W platform. Tweak and guideline requests (OCP settings, efficiency at different loads, etc.) from HP put the continuous output rating at 1100W. So that's another $50 we need to add for the PSU. FWIW, it's based on the same unit as the ABS/Tagan 1300W (looser standards than HP) which sells for $400.yyrkoon - Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - link
OF al lthe OEM system manufactuers HP probably has one of the better warranties, or so I have been told. Since I do not personally OWN a HP machine, I have to go by word of mouth here. Anyhow, I would venture to say that the warranty on these blackbird system would probably have to be close to Dells Gold service plan.What does this mean ? It means you do not have to play the idiot on the phone for some E. India 'technitian' who probably has less of a clue what is wrong with your system than you do, but rather get to deal with stateside technitians who can actually be helpfull . . . It also means you do not have to wait for some lowly tech to wade through the 'chain of command' to get things replaced/fixed.
Slaimus - Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - link
Is it true that for this system HP somehow got CF to work on a SLI motherboard? If so, does it need special modded drivers like the ULi "GLI" motherboards?wolfman3k5 - Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - link
I doubt that, I will do some research on that and post back. Raul Sood said that they didn't do it with NVidia's help, so if anything was moded, it must be special Catalyst drivers that are being made available only to HP. Sooner or later the "secret" will come out. But I don't imagine that it's something that difficult to do, since ATI uses two CF bridges, and they transfer all rendering data over those, hence, they don't have to rely on the chipset.RamarC - Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - link
but the blackbird line is shipping with at least two motherboard options since there's an amd x2 based blackbird. so two additional mobos could be available for cf/sli.JarredWalton - Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - link
No need to do any research:"ATI CrossFire requires peer-to-peer writes in order to function, and ATI has always maintained that support for this feature is the only thing preventing CrossFire from working on other chipsets, like NVIDIA's SLI chipsets."
If the BIOS is updates so that peer-to-peer PCI-E writes work, CrossFire should work. SLI of course is a given, and getting SLI on non-NVIDIA chipsets is what usually requires hacked drivers. I'll let you know if the stock 7.9 drivers work properly later today when I've had a chance to verify.
n7 - Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - link
I was excited to see this review, mainly because i wanted to see how well their cooling system worked.But there's not a word in this review about the cooling setup, what temps were, was it better than others for OCing etc...
And as for the system itself, sure, it looks nice, & getting SLI or CF working is nice, but 2 GB of RAM?
That's just a big joke when many of us already run 4 GB in our "lowly systems"...
JarredWalton - Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - link
For a 32-bit OS, there's not much need to go beyond 2GB of RAM. Users will almost certainly get the option to install 4GB in the online configurator - and they might even be able to select a 64-bit OS; I don't know yet because the system isn't officially on sale for a few more days.As for the water cooling setup, I haven't tested any other water cooling configs so I can't say whether the Asetek unit in the Blackbird is better or not. It appears to deal with a fully stressed Core 2 Quad @ 3.66 GHz, though I can't be 100% sure that the overclock didn't cause a crash or two. I can look into temperatures for the follow-up, but honestly I think stability is far more important. If a system can manage to run Folding@Home SMP without excessive failures and/or crashes, that's usually a pretty good indication that the overclock is "safe".
wolfman3k5 - Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - link
HP should have known better than installing a 32 bit OS on such a system, because the OS will never be able to address all the video memory. It's about the same as installing 4GB Ram on a 32 bit OS, except that in this situation with 2GB system RAM and 2GB Video Ram, the OS will be able to address closer to 4GB Ram. Other devices also take away some of the 4GB addressing space.As far as CrossFire is concerned, it's not so miraculous that it works on a Striker Motherboard. After all, native crossfire will transfer all data over the two bridges, so it can be chipset agnostic.
It looks like the high performance PC market is pretty profitable, and HP and other companies are going after the boutique manufacturers to try and take away what business is left. But if I want this kind of computer, I'd rather buy from Falcon NW, Puget or build my own. Sorry, not my cup of tea.