Quad SLI with 9800 GX2: Pushing a System to its Limit
by Derek Wilson on March 25, 2008 9:00 AM EST- Posted in
- GPUs
(Not so) Final Words
Unfortunately, we can’t really draw a fair final conclusion from the data we have here. Certainly this is an expensive solution, and it is absolutely not for everyone. But does it fill the needs of those who would want it and could afford it? Maybe and maybe not.
In almost every game other than Crysis, we don’t have a need to move beyond one 9800 GX2 (or 8800 GT/GTS/GTX/Ultra SLI). And in Crysis, we aren’t simply going to trust NVIDIA when they say we should see 60% scaling. We need to actually make it happen ourselves. The fact that we’ve run into some pretty strange problems doesn’t bode well for the solution in general, but we are willing to see what we can do to make it perform near to what we expect before we cast final judgment.
At the same time, that final judgment must include all the facts about what you gain from Quad SLI for the money. If it makes Crysis smooth as butter at Very High settings (it is actually playable even with the 40 average FPS system limitation), then that is something. But $1200 for a Crysis accelerator is a bit of overkill. NVIDIA has made the point to me that $1200 spent on graphics cards is better placed than $1200 spent on an Extreme Edition CPU. That isn’t a particularly compelling argument for us as I don’t believe we have ever recommended the purchase of an Extreme Edition processor (except for overclocking enthusiasts, perhaps). You certainly don’t get what you pay for unless you really need it for a specific CPU heavy workload. Content creation, engineering, math, and workstation applications might be a good fit, but certainly not gaming and especially not in a world where the more extreme you get the more cores you have.
Which brings me to a side rant. Parallelism is a good thing, but neither Intel nor AMD can ignore the single-threaded code path. Not everything can be split up easily, and every thread will always be limited in performance by the speed of the core it is running on. Of course, specialized cores on a heterogeneous processor would help, as would dedicated hardware. That just makes us lament the death of the PPU through the NVIDIA acquisition even more. But I digress.
On the topic of 9800 GX2 Quad SLI, there are benefits aside from the potential of Crysis that we haven’t covered here. NVIDIA has enabled AA on S.T.A.L.K.E.R., but it is very processing and memory heavy. Quad SLI could enable playable frame rates at higher resolutions with 2xAA enabled. With Clear Sky coming out soon, this could be a good thing for fans. You also get SLI AA modes. These do offer a benefit, but AA has diminishing returns at higher resolutions, and especially at higher AA levels. We will be testing SLI AA again at some point, but we want to look at both image quality and performance when we do so.
These cards also act as incredible space heaters. That may not be important right now with summer coming on, but any of our readers that live at the North Pole (Hi Santa! I've been good!) or in Antarctica (sentient penguins running Linux, for example) might appreciate the ability to turn down the thermostat while they sit next to their toasty Quad SLI system.
The bottom line right now is that this is not a solution for most people. Unless we see great scaling in Crysis, there are only a few other compelling features that can currently be enabled through the use of Quad SLI. Sure, it might handle future games with ease, but we always advise against trying to future proof when it comes to graphics. That’s always a path that leads to heartache and the hemorrhaging of money. Just ask previous 7950 GX2 Quad SLI owners about how happy they've been with support and performance over the past year. If you aren’t obsessed with Crysis, skip it. If you are obsessed with Crysis, we’ll get back to you with some numbers on what performance is like once we find a system we can get some headroom on: I’ll have 790i this week and I’ll be hard at work testing it out.
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DerekWilson - Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - link
we've looked at using the hp blackbird ...the major reason i want to use skulltrail is to compare crossfire to sli.
there are plenty of reasons i'd rather use another platform, but i'd love it if either AMD or NVIDIA would take a step outside of the box and enable either their platform to support other multiGPU configurations or enable their drivers and cards to run in multiGPU configurations on other platforms.
7Enigma - Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - link
It's a slippery slope. We want to be able to say Nvidia is better than ATI (or vice versa), or that future scaling due to architecture will make A better than B. The truth as you pointed out is that it doesn't happen this way in all cases. You can have a A64 3200+ (like I currently do) and throw a GX2 at it and it probably won't perform better than a 9600GT. But that doesn't mean its an equal card, just that in a particular situation it performed the same. It's up to the buyer to do their homework and figure out whether its worth it to drop $650 when their system in current $$$ might not be worth the price of the card....Hocp tried this tactic with the launch of the C2D's and got a lot of heat (I agreed with the anger). They were trying to show that most games are GPU limited and so the new CPU's showed no benefit. Of course it was only a small selection of games, and they didn't take into consideration the 2 largest cpu-straining genre's (RTS and flight sim), and they were running at very high resolutions (which obviously would make things GPU bound).
One of gamespot.com's good features is in their game coverage (pretty much all I use them for). They put out hardware guides that do exactly what you want. They take a specific game and throw a battery of systems at it to see what makes a difference. Those guides will show you just how much improvement you can expect when going from a certain graphics card to a better one on a specific cpu platform. You'll be able to see whether your cpu/mobo combination is at the end of its usable lifespan (ie upgrading other components such as GPU/ram no longer yield a large improvement due to cpu/other bottleneck).
I would say while like you I read these reviews knowing I'll likely never own one of these cards/cpu's, it does give a good picture of who is at the top, and therefore, who has the potential to outlast the other in a system before an upgrade is needed.
With all that said, there is clearly a major problem going on and so all the data generated in this and possibly the previous single GX2 review also benchmarked on the skulltrail platform needs to be taken with a grain of salt, realizing that the numbers could very likely be invalid.
DerekWilson - Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - link
I doubt there is a major problem that would invalidate the data ... and I'm not just saying that because I spent weeks testing and troubleshooting :-)certainly something is going on, but in spite of the fact that 780i performs a bit higher, performance characteristics are exactly the same -- if there is an issue with my setup it is not platform specific.
I'm still tracking issues though ...
chizow - Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - link
Nice job on the review Derek, looks like you ran into some problems but I'd guess testing these new pieces of hardware make it worthwhile.It really looks like Quad SLI scaling is really poor right now, do you think its a case of drivers needing to mature, CPU bottleneck, or frame buffer limitations? I know Vista should be maxed at 4 frame buffers, but there seems to be very little scaling beyond a single GX2 in everything except Crysis (and COD4). In some games, performance actually decreases with the 2nd GX2.
Also, seeing the massive performance difference between Skulltrail and 780i, is it even worthwhile to continue using Skulltrail as a test platform? I understand it makes it more convenient for you guys to test between different GPU vendors, but a 25% difference in Crysis between an NV SLI solution and Intel's SLI solution is rather drastic, and that's *after* you factor in the 2nd CPU for Skulltrail. Does ATI suffer a similar performance hit when compared against its best performing chipset platform?
I would've liked to have seen Tri-SLI compared in there. Personally I think Tri-SLI with 8800 GTX/Ultra and soon, 9800 GTX will outperform Quad-SLI as it seems the drivers are a bit more mature for Tri-SLI and scaling was better as well. SLI performance with those parts is slightly better already than the GX2 and adding that third card should give Tri-SLI the lead over Quad-SLI.
Lastly, how was your actual gameplay experience with these high-end parts? Micro-stutter is a buzz word that has been gaining steam lately with multi-GPU solutions. Did you notice any in your testing? It looks like frame buffer size really kills all of these 512MB parts at 2560, would you consider games at that resolution unplayable? It seems many who considered 2-GX2 or 2-X2 would have done so to play at 2560. If that resolution is unplayable, you're looking at an even smaller window of consumers that would actually buy and benefit from such an expensive set-up.
seamusmc - Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - link
chizow check out Hard OCP's review in regards to 'micro' stutter. They do a great job of presenting the issue and how it affects gameplay.They feel the problem is due to the smaller amount of memory/memory bandwidth on the GX2 as opposed to an 8800 GTX/Ultra.
DerekWilson - Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - link
in my gameplay experience, i had no difficulty with micro stutter and the 9800gx2 in quad sli.i will say that i have run into the problem on crossfirex in oblivion with 4 way at very high res. it wasn't that pronounced or detrimental to the overall experience to me, but i'll make sure to mention it when i run into this problem in the future.
cactusjack - Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - link
Nvidia should go back to making good stable video cards with good IQ instead of flexing their e muscles with crap like this that no one will ever want or need. Nvidia had problems with power issues and vista driver issues on 8 series cards (G92)that they should be working on.raymondse - Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - link
Crysis this, Crysis that. SLI this, CrossFire that...After reading almost a dozen reviews of SLI, Tri-SLI, Quad-SLI, and CrossFire running Crysis and handful of other games, it seems that there is something terribly wrong with the all the benchmarks. Test results show that raw multi-GPU horsepower, even when coupled with multi-CPUs, just isn't delivering the kinds of numbers that most of us were expecting. The potential computing power that this kind of hardware can deliver just doesn't show in the numbers. Something is really, really wrong with one of these components thats disrupting the whole point of going for more than one CPU/GPU.
What I'd like to see is some definitive study showing where the problem(s) is and who to blame. Is it the CPU? GPU? Memory? System Bus? PCI-E? Drivers? DirectX? Windows? or the game/application itself?
After all these tests and benchmarks run by really, really smart people, someone out there ought to be able to deduce who messed up in all this business.
Das Capitolin - Wednesday, April 2, 2008 - link
What I dislike about many reviews, is that they test Crysis on "HIGH" settings. There's a major difference between "HIGH" which doesn't use AA, and HIGH with 16x Q AA.Here's an example of the difference it makes.
http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_c...">http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?o...;Itemid=...
Das Capitolin - Wednesday, April 2, 2008 - link
What I dislike about many reviews, is that they test Crysis on "HIGH" settings. There's a major difference between "HIGH" which doesn't use AA, and HIGH with 16x Q AA.Here's an example of the difference it makes.