The Radeon HD 4850 & 4870: AMD Wins at $199 and $299
by Anand Lal Shimpi & Derek Wilson on June 25, 2008 12:00 AM EST- Posted in
- GPUs
Final Words
Due to circumstances quite beyond our control, this will be essentially the third time we've covered the Radeon HD 4850. AMD has managed to make the $200 price point very exciting and competitive, and the less powerful version of RV770 that is the 4850 is a great buy for the performance.
As for the new business, the Radeon HD 4870 is not only based on an efficient architecture (both in terms of performance per area and per watt), it is an excellent buy as well. Of course we have to put out the usual disclaimer of "it depends on the benchmark you care about," but in our testing we definitely saw this $300 part perform at the level of NVIDIA's $400 GT200 variant, the GTX 260. This fact clearly sets the 4870 in a performance class beyond its price.
Once again we see tremendous potential in CrossFire. When it works, it scales extremely well, but when it doesn't - the results aren't very good. You may have noticed better CrossFire scaling in Bioshock and the Witcher since our Radeon HD 4850 preview just a few days ago. The reason for the improved scaling is that AMD provided us with a new driver drop yesterday (and quietly made public) that enables CrossFire profiles for both of these games. The correlation between the timing of our review and AMD addressing poor CF scaling in those two games is supicious. If AMD is truly going to go the multi-GPU route for its high end parts, it needs to enable more consistent support for CF across the board - regardless of whether or not we feature those games in our reviews.
That being said, AMD's strategy has validity as we've seen here today. A pair of Radeon HD 4850s can come close to the performance of a GeForce GTX 280, and a pair of Radeon HD 4870s are faster across the board - not to mention that they should be $50 less than the GTX 280 and will work on motherboards with Intel-chipsets. Quite possibly more important than the fact that AMD's multi-GPU strategy has potential is the fact that it may not even be necessary for the majority of gamers - a single Radeon HD 4850 or Radeon HD 4870 is easily enough to run anything out today. We'll still need the large monolithic GPUs (or multi-GPU solutions) to help drive the industry forward, but AMD raised the bar for single-card, single-GPU performance through good design, execution and timing with its RV770. Just as NVIDIA picked the perfect time to release its 8800 GT last year, AMD picked the perfect time to release the 4800 series this year.
Like it's RV670 based predecessors, the Radeon 4850 and 4870 both implement DX10.1 support and enable GPU computing through their CAL SDK and various high level language constructs that can compile down SPMD code to run on AMD hardware. While these features are great and we encourage developers to embrace them, we aren't going to recommend cards based on features that aren't yet widely used. Did we mention there's a tessellator in there?
On the GPGPU side of things, we love the fact that both NVIDIA and AMD are sharing more information with us, but developers are going to need more hardware detail. As we mentioned in our GT200 coverage, we are still hoping that Intel jumping in the game will stir things up enough to really get us some great low level information.
We know that NVIDIA and AMD do a whole lot of things in a similar way, but that their compute arrays are vastly different in the way they handle single threads. The differences in the architecture has the effect of causing different optimization techniques to be needed for both architectures which can make writing fast code for both quite a challenge. The future is wide open in terms of how game developers and GPGPU programs tend to favor writing code and what affect that will have on the future performance of both NVIDIA and AMD hardware.
For now, the Radeon HD 4870 and 4850 are both solid values and cards we would absolutely recommend to readers looking for hardware at the $200 and $300 price points. The fact of the matter is that by NVIDIA's standards, the 4870 should be priced at $400 and the 4850 should be around $250. You can either look at it as AMD giving you a bargain or NVIDIA charging too much, either way it's healthy competition in the graphics industry once again (after far too long of a hiatus).
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araczynski - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
...as more and more people are hooking up their graphics cards to big HDTVs instead of wasting time with little monitors, i keep hoping to find out whether the 9800gx2/4800 lines have proper 1080p scaling/synching with the tvs? for example the 8800 line from nvidia seems to butcher 1080p with tv's.anyone care to speak from experience?
DerekWilson - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
i havent had any problem with any modern graphics card (dvi or hdmi) and digital hdtvsi haven't really played with analog for a long time and i'm not sure how either amd or nvidia handle analog issues like overscan and timing.
araczynski - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
interesting, what cards have you worked with? i have the 8800gts512 right now and have the same problem as with the 7900gtx previously. when i select 1080p for the resolution (which the drivers recognize the tv being capable of as it lists it as the native resolution) i get a washed out messy result where the contrast/brightness is completely maxed (sliders do little to help) as well as the whole overscan thing that forces me to shrink the displayed image down to fit the actual tv (with the nvidia driver utility). 1600x900 can usually be tolerable in XP (not in vista for some reason) and 1080p is just downright painful.i suppose it could by my dvi to hdmi cable? its a short run, but who knows... i just remember reading a bit on the nvidia forums that this is a known issue with the 8800 line, so was curious as to how the 9800 line or even the 4800 line handle it.
but as the previous guy mentioned, ATI does tend to do the TV stuff much better than nvidia ever did... maybe 4850 crossfire will be in my rig soon... unless i hear more about the 4870x2 soon...
ChronoReverse - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
ATI cards tend to do the TV stuff properlyFXi - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
If Nvidia doesn't release SLI to Intel chipsets (and on a $/perf ratio it might not even help if it does), the 4870 in CF is going to stop sales of the 260's into the ground.Releasing SLI on Intel and easing the price might help ease that problem, but of course they won't do it. Looks like ATI hasn't just come back, they've got a very, very good chip on their hands.
Powervano - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
Anand and DerekWhat about temperatures of HD4870 under IDLE and LOAD? page 21 only shows power comsumption.
iwodo - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
Given how ATI architecture greatly rely on maximizing its Shader use, wouldn't driver optimization be much more important then Nvidia in this regard?And is ATI going about Nvidia CUDA? Given CUDA now have a much bigger exposure then how ever ATI is offering.. CAL or CTM.. i dont even know now.
DerekWilson - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
getting exposure for AMD's own GPGPU solutions and tools is going to be though, especially in light of Tesla and the momentum NVIDIA is building in the higher performance areas.they've just got to keep at it.
but i think their best hope is in Apple right now with OpenCL (as has been mentioned above) ...
certainly AMD need to keep pushing their GPU compute solutions, and trying to get people to build real apps that they can point to (like folding) and say "hey look we do this well too" ...
but in the long term i think NVIDIA's got the better marketing there (both to consumers and developers) and it's not likely going to be until a single compute language emerges as the dominant one that we see level competition.
Amiga500 - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
AMD are going to continue to use the open source alternative - Open CL.In a relatively fledgling program environment, it makes all the sense in the world for developers to use the open source option, as compatibility and interoperability can be assured, unlike older environments like graphics APIs.
OSX v10.6 (snow lepoard) will use Open CL.
DerekWilson - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
OpenCL isn't "open source" ...Apple is trying to create an industry standard heterogeneous compute language.
What we need is a compute language that isn't "owned" by a specific hardware maker. The problem is that NVIDIA has the power to redefine the CUDA language as it moves forward to better fit their architecture. Whether they would do this or not is irrelevant in light of the fact that it makes no sense for a competitor to adopt the solution if the possibility exists.
If NVIDIA wants to advance the industry, eventually they'll try and get CUDA ANSI / ISO certified or try to form an industry working group to refine and standardize it. While they have the exposure and power in CUDA and Tesla they won't really be interested in doing this (at least that's our prediction).
Apple is starting from a standards centric view and I hope they will help build a heterogeneous computing language that combines the high points of all the different solutions out there now into something that's easy to develop or and that can generate code to run well on all architectures.
but we'll have to wait and see.