NVIDIA's Fermi: Architected for Tesla, 3 Billion Transistors in 2010
by Anand Lal Shimpi on September 30, 2009 12:00 AM EST- Posted in
- GPUs
The RV770 Lesson (or The GT200 Story)
It took NVIDIA a while to give us an honest response to the RV770. At first it was all about CUDA and PhsyX. RV770 didn't have it, so we shouldn't be recommending it; that was NVIDIA's stance.
Today, it's much more humble.
Ujesh is wiling to take total blame for GT200. As manager of GeForce at the time, Ujesh admitted that he priced GT200 wrong. NVIDIA looked at RV670 (Radeon HD 3870) and extrapolated from that to predict what RV770's performance would be. Obviously, RV770 caught NVIDIA off guard and GT200 was priced much too high.
Ujesh doesn't believe NVIDIA will make the same mistake with Fermi.
Jonah, unwilling to let Ujesh take all of the blame, admitted that engineering was partially at fault as well. GT200 was the last chip NVIDIA ever built at 65nm - there's no excuse for that. The chip needed to be at 55nm from the get-go, but NVIDIA had been extremely conservative about moving to new manufacturing processes too early.
It all dates back to NV30, the GeForce FX. It was a brand new architecture on a bleeding edge manufacturing process, 130nm at the time, which ultimately lead to its delay. ATI pulled ahead with the 150nm Radeon 9700 Pro and NVIDIA vowed never to make that mistake again.
With NV30, NVIDIA was too eager to move to new processes. Jonah believes that GT200 was an example of NVIDIA swinging too far in the other direction; NVIDIA was too conservative.
The biggest lesson RV770 taught NVIDIA was to be quicker to migrate to new manufacturing processes. Not NV30 quick, but definitely not as slow as GT200. Internal policies are now in place to ensure this.
Architecturally, there aren't huge lessons to be learned from RV770. It was a good chip in NVIDIA's eyes, but NVIDIA isn't adjusting their architecture in response to it. NVIDIA will continue to build beefy GPUs and AMD appears committed to building more affordable ones. Both companies are focused on building more efficiently.
Of Die Sizes and Transitions
Fermi and Cypress are both built on the same 40nm TSMC process, yet they differ by nearly 1 billion transistors. Even the first generation Larrabee will be closer in size to Cypress than Fermi, and it's made at Intel's state of the art 45nm facilities.
What you're seeing is a significant divergence between the graphics companies, one that I expect will continue to grow in the near term.
NVIDIA's architecture is designed to address its primary deficiency: the company's lack of a general purpose microprocessor. As such, Fermi's enhancements over GT200 address that issue. While Fermi will play games, and NVIDIA claims it will do so better than the Radeon HD 5870, it is designed to be a general purpose compute machine.
ATI's approach is much more cautious. While Cypress can run DirectX Compute and OpenCL applications (the former faster than any NVIDIA GPU on the market today), ATI's use of transistors was specifically targeted to run the GPU's killer app today: 3D games.
Intel's take is the most unique. Both ATI and NVIDIA have to support their existing businesses, so they can't simply introduce a revolutionary product that sacrifices performance on existing applications for some lofty, longer term goal. Intel however has no discrete GPU business today, so it can.
Larrabee is in rough shape right now. The chip is buggy, the first time we met it it wasn't healthy enough to even run a 3D game. Intel has 6 - 9 months to get it ready for launch. By then, the Radeon HD 5870 will be priced between $299 - $349, and Larrabee will most likely slot in $100 - $150 cheaper. Fermi is going to be aiming for the top of the price brackets.
The motivation behind AMD's "sweet spot" strategy wasn't just die size, it was price. AMD believed that by building large, $600+ GPUs, it didn't service the needs of the majority of its customers quickly enough. It took far too long to make a $199 GPU from a $600 one - quickly approaching a year.
Clearly Fermi is going to be huge. NVIDIA isn't disclosing die sizes, but if we estimate that a 40% higher transistor count results in a 40% larger die area then we're looking at over 467mm^2 for Fermi. That's smaller than GT200 and about the size of G80; it's still big.
I asked Jonah if that meant Fermi would take a while to move down to more mainstream pricepoints. Ujesh stepped in and said that he thought I'd be pleasantly surprised once NVIDIA is ready to announce Fermi configurations and price points. If you were NVIDIA, would you say anything else?
Jonah did step in to clarify. He believes that AMD's strategy simply boils down to targeting a different price point. He believes that the correct answer isn't to target a lower price point first, but rather build big chips efficiently. And build them so that you can scale to different sizes/configurations without having to redo a bunch of stuff. Putting on his marketing hat for a bit, Jonah said that NVIDIA is actively making investments in that direction. Perhaps Fermi will be different and it'll scale down to $199 and $299 price points with little effort? It seems doubtful, but we'll find out next year.
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PorscheRacer - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
I have no clue what the red rooster thing implies, and I never understood why people called nVIDIA the green goblin. Until now. You, sir, have made it clear to me. They are called the green goblin, because that's where the trolls come from. Like wow. Your partisan and righteous thinking has no merit, no basis except conjecture and criticism. Save a keyboard, chill out and let's see if you can post anything in here without using the words, nVIDIA, ATI, red rooster, green goblin, and anything with ALL CAPS.It's fine to be passionate about something. But to exessive extents that push everyone else away and leave people ashamed, discouraged and embarrased; that's not how to win hearts and minds. I can already see you getting riled up over this post telling you to chill out....
SiliconDoc - Friday, October 2, 2009 - link
Hmmmm, that's very interesting. First you go into a pretend place where you assume green goblin is something "they call" nVIDIA, but just earlier, you'd never seen it in print before in your life.Along with that little fib problem, you make the rest of the paragraph a whining attack. One might think you need to settle down and take your own medicine.
And speaking of advice, your next paragraph talks about what you did in your first that you claim noone should, so I guess you're exempt in your own mind.
kirillian - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
Yall...seriously...leave the poor NVidia Fanboy alone. His head is probably throbbing with the fact that he found his first website (other than HardOCP) that isn't extremely NVidia biased.SiliconDoc - Friday, October 2, 2009 - link
Gee, I find that interesting that you know all about bias at other websites...So that says what again about here ?
silverblue - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
The 5870 is but one single GPU. The 295 is two and costs more. The 4870X2/CF is also a case of two GPUs. A 5870X2 would annihilate everything out there right now, and guess what? 5870 CF does just that. If money is no object, that would be the current option, or 5850s in CF to cut down on power usage and a fair amount of the cost without substantially decreasing performance.By stating "if someone wants to get their next-gen performance now", of course he's going to point in the direction of ATI as they are the only people with a DX11 part, and they currently hold the single GPU speed crown. This will not be the case in a few months, but for now, they do.
SiliconDoc - Friday, October 2, 2009 - link
I kinda doubt the 5870x2 blows away GTX295 quad, don't you ?--
Now you want to whine cost, too, but then excuse it for the 5870CF. LOL.
Another big fat riotous red rooster.
Really, you people love lies, and what's bad when it's nvidia, is good when it's ati, you just exactly said it !
ROFLMAO
--
Should I go get a 295 quad setup review and show you ?
--
How come you were wrong, whined I should settle down, then came back blowing lies again ?
There's no DX11 ready to speak of, so that's another pale and feckless attempt at the face save, after your excited, out of control, whipped up incorrect initial post, and this follow up fibber.
You need to settle down. "I want you banned"
Finally, you try to pretend you're not full of it, with your spewing caveat of prediction, "this will not be the case in a few months" - LOL
It's NOT the case NOW, but in a few months, it sure looks like it might BE THE CASE NO MATTER WHAT, unless of course ati launches the 5870x2 along with nvidia's SC GT300, which for all I know could happen.
So, even in that, you are NOT correct to any certainty, are you...
LOL
Calm down, and think FIRST, then start on your rampage without lying.
silverblue - Friday, October 2, 2009 - link
My GOD... you're a retard of the highest order.Why would I want to compare a dual GPU setup with an 8 GPU setup? What numpty would do that when it would logically be far faster? Even a quad 5870 setup wouldn't beat a quad 295 setup, and you know what? WE KNOW! 8 cores versus 4 is no contest. Core for core, RV870 is noticeably faster than the GT200 series, but you're the only person attempting to compare a single GPU card to a dual GPU card and saying the single GPU card sucks because it doesn't win.
And where did I say "I want you banned"? As someone once said, "lay off the crack".
SiliconDoc - Friday, October 2, 2009 - link
Aren't you the one who claimed only ati for the next gen performance ?Well, you really blew it, and no face save is possible. A single NVIDIA card beats the best single ati card. PERIOD.
It's true right now, and may or may not change within two months.
PERIOD.
silverblue - Friday, October 2, 2009 - link
No, I said that ATI currently has the single GPU crown. Not card - GPU. In a couple of months, ATI may have the 5870X2 out, and that WILL send the 295 the way of the dodo if it's priced correctly.No face saving necessary on my part.
Zaitsev - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - link
^^LOL. I don't see what all the bickering is about. If you're willing to wait a few more months, then you can buy a faster card. If you want to buy now, there are also some nice options available. Currently there are 5 brands of 5870's and 1 5850 at the egg.