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  • Stochastic - Tuesday, December 5, 2017 - link

    Regardless of whether the 1st gen products are any good, it's nice to see some more competition in the PC space. PCs are exciting again!
  • WorldWithoutMadness - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    Therefore, android tablets and ipad falls into PC as well. Just slap keyboard and you're done.
    In near future, MS will sell Win10 license for arm
  • ikjadoon - Tuesday, December 5, 2017 - link

    And notably, no mention of legal actions on x86. Or is that happening in the background?

    But, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to AMD, HP, Lenovo, ASUS, Microsoft, and Qualcomm that they've found themselves solid legal standing that these devices won't face dozens of lawsuits about royalties or cease-and-desist demands.
  • HStewart - Tuesday, December 5, 2017 - link

    What about the real legal actions on Qualcomm, with 1Gb LTE only being on Qualcomm SOC'

    Not to mention the emulation of x86 which is not new technology, third part application on Windows RT.
  • Morawka - Tuesday, December 5, 2017 - link

    Intel has a 1GB LTE Modem releasing in 2018 as well.
  • piroroadkill - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    8 times as fast? Very impressive.
  • HStewart - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    That is good to here, we don't want Qualcomm having a monopoly on this market - I was especially worried that it was only included in Qualcomm SOC's
  • peevee - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    I like to see them emulating AVX-512.
  • Elstar - Tuesday, December 5, 2017 - link

    Microsoft might avoid a lawsuit if they avoid implementing enough instructions/features. I'm really curious to learn what feature flags the emulator presents to software.
  • niva - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    Is there more information about this emulator? There was nothing in the recent articles about emulation, instead they say windows 10 on arm, which implies they got the kernel running on arm architecture. I'm not saying there's no emulation, I just don't know much based on this article. On the surface, it appears that Microsoft may have made the breakthrough it needed to get back into the front.
  • HStewart - Tuesday, December 5, 2017 - link

    The real question is do we really need always connected devices, I am sure it not just me but all this connectivity leads to spyware communicating to servers and using of valuable resource on computer. Even Malware that mines Bitcoin for someone else.

    Let just hope they continue allow usage disconnected.
  • inighthawki - Tuesday, December 5, 2017 - link

    Outside of my phone I have never once thought to myself "wow I wish my laptop stayed on to be able to receive emails!"

    I would literally pay extra to be able to put my device into real sleep mode instead of connected standby.
  • HStewart - Tuesday, December 5, 2017 - link

    I not saying eliminate sleep mode, just when you not using it - not do any thing in background.
  • Gunbuster - Tuesday, December 5, 2017 - link

    Yeah NSA standby was a solution in search of a problem and they keep renaming it and pushing it again and again...
  • beginner99 - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    Exactly. My always-on device for simple tasks is my smartphone. I don't need such a laptop device and especially not one with the same meager performance and software support.
  • lilmoe - Tuesday, December 5, 2017 - link

    +1
    Forget spyware and all, is the always connected PC even needed with everyone having a smartphone? You can easily get all the notifications you already need, right now, on your smartphone.

    What needs to be done is all about software and cloud integration. Microsoft needs deeper integration with Android and iOS, not just in the form of apps, you seamlessly transition work from mobile to PC. They're already working on it, but I believe they need to work more closely with Samsung and other Android OEMs to make the experience flawless and more meaningful.

    Sure, Apple kinda sorta has this luxury, but no one uses MacOS...
  • HStewart - Tuesday, December 5, 2017 - link

    This is not a Microsoft only concern, even with my Android and IPhone, background process seem to always take up time.

    Mostly I notice this with both Android and iPhone, mostly me processes don't close and eat batter. A desktop or laptop connected to power - you don't notice this part - unless it really extensive task.
  • FunBunny2 - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    "Forget spyware and all, is the always connected PC even needed with everyone having a smartphone? "

    but the point could be, we'll see, is to build host/terminal applications (mainframe or server wired to a VT-100, for example) so that the device on the user end is just a "dumb terminal", thus putting the data and processing back central where it used to be and is more easily managed. we'll see.
  • mr_tawan - Thursday, December 7, 2017 - link

    Certainly not for everyone. However, I'm sure there are people willing to pay extra so they don't have to rely on a mobile phone when they have to work with laptops. Sharing data from mobile phone sure is easy, but ones might want to avoid doing so as it can drain out the battery pretty fast. Having a separate mobile router can be clunky too. And it's not everywhere in the world that has free wifi.
  • mr_tawan - Thursday, December 7, 2017 - link

    whoops looks like I responded to the wrong news lol
  • Someguyperson - Tuesday, December 5, 2017 - link

    "Let just hope they continue allow usage disconnected."

    It's called Airplane Mode. It's only been around for a decade or two.
  • rocky12345 - Tuesday, December 5, 2017 - link

    For me I do not need always connected device like a laptop. If I do I just tether my smart phone or make my phone a wifi hot spot and that allows me to get my laptop on the internet if I am in a remote spot without any other form of internet. I also do not want or need to have another monthly bill form my ISP just so I can have my laptop go on the internet.

    This crap about everyone having to have all of their devices hooked up to Facebook 24/7 is plain dumb. Like I said if I need my laptop on the internet that is one of the reasons I have a device that already does that being my smart phone...For myself this is just a waste of time and money but there are probably others that will find it an asset I guess.
  • rocky12345 - Tuesday, December 5, 2017 - link

    Just wanted to add don't even get me started on this x86 emulation trudge. People will buy into it thinking it will be just like having a real x86 device only to find out that most software will either run very slow or not at all & if you want to fire up a game well most likely forget that since the hardware will be way to slow and the game probably will just refuse to run or flat out crash.
  • Someguyperson - Tuesday, December 5, 2017 - link

    I don't think anyone would think of gaming on a fanless device. Do people expect to game on the fanless MacBook? No, you need a discrete GPU or an APU to do any moderately stressful gaming.
  • rocky12345 - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    YEs a sane person would probably not try to game on one of these devices but there are a lot of people out there that will try to and then be upset that because they just spent $600-$700 on a device they most likely expect it to perform at that level as well.
  • inighthawki - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    Well I don't think anyone is going to purchase this type of device with the idea of running demanding 3D games, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect some very popular and less demanding games to run, like league of legends. If a game like that cannot run at adequate performance (where it normally would on a standard [low end] x86 device), there will be some upset people. I don't think this would be unreasonable for a person to think at all.
  • masouth - Thursday, December 7, 2017 - link

    "Well I don't think anyone is going to purchase this type of device with the idea of running demanding 3D games..."

    You are speaking from YOUR tech knowledge and not that of the general tech-buying but tech-ignorant consumer. I get asked entirely too many questions along the lines of "I play new FPS games on my 8600 GT but it's only got 512mb of RAM so I was looking to upgrade to a GT 710 because it's got 2gb so it will be crazy fast, right? o.O

    Personally, I wouldn't even bother loading up a modern FPS on either of those because I would never get the resolution/ settings/ frame rates that I would be happy with but that's the reality that many people live with (integrated intel/ entry level card/ old card) and yet many of them expect if they spend at least XXX amount of dollars then they should be able to get what they want. The dollar amount changes depending on the person but the expectations always seem to be above the reality of their budget.

    Never, and I mean NEVER, underestimate consumers ability to believe the amount of money spent equals performance in whatever they want it to perform in. I have zero doubt there would be a not insignificant number of people that would buy this and then expect to play Battlefield 1 butter smooth at 4k.
  • Amandtec - Thursday, December 7, 2017 - link

    If you you mostly use Office and Email (many people) and want a light device with 20 hours battery, an iPad and a mobile data connection for $600 then you are the target market.
  • Alistair - Tuesday, December 5, 2017 - link

    I was hoping to see ARM desktops. Not really interested in more overpriced laptops.

    Surface laptop with snapdragon 845 and phone call and messaging support?
  • HStewart - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    "I was hoping to see ARM desktops. Not really interested in more overpriced laptops."

    Are you really serious in ARM desktop - that sounds crazy and saying that laptops are overprice - I guess you never had a computer from the 90's or early 2000's - I remember paying $3500 for huge desktop that a $100 ATOM today would blow away

    "Surface laptop with snapdragon 845 and phone call and messaging support?"

    Microsoft had this before - it was called "Windows RT" and it failed. Not sure if had Phone support
  • inighthawki - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    Windows RT failed because it was a completely locked down platform with literally zero developer support, so the only thing you could do with it was basic web browsing and notepad. These devices have full x86 support (albeit with degraded performance depending on the scenario) and the ability to unlock the device to run apps/programs not just from the store. I feel like they've solved the two huge hurdles they originally faced.
  • abufrejoval - Tuesday, December 5, 2017 - link

    There is nothing wrong with computing devices (including servers) which are always ready to interact with the network or any other potential interface, especially when they don't use any significant amount of energy for being ready.

    There is everything wrong with computing devices always connected to Microsoft or any other vendor or manufacturer with a dependency that is a mix of slavery and blackmail, where you are owned rather than obtaining or retaining ownership over what you purchased.

    A purchase is not an indenture and this practice needs to be stopped and punished severely.

    Microsoft is luring customers into swapping a personal computer for a Larry Niven droud with attractive technology: Don't let yourself be trapped, but fight for a disconnected Microsoft, Google, Facebook and...

    well I guess there is no sense APPLEaling to wireheads
  • Hurr Durr - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    "Disconnected goog", ahahaha.
  • duploxxx - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    The issue is dear Intel that when yours truly got the monopoly by financially screwing competitors you also implemented a way of working dominating and stating how your products aught to be sold and designed. This created a different market, as you wanted to push the business always your way. Now you have again competition in many directions (finally) and you notice that the business is changing and no longer controllable or possible to redirect the way you want. SO you get scared, bold and pushed in a corner. Currently you just solve it by pushing more funding money into system builders pockets asking for more products from yourself.... that is again screwing the business as usual.
  • yeeeeman - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    This time Intel is right, Qualcomm didn't bring something new with their always connected PCs.
    I also like how all big players in the industry say that they listen to customer needs and they do what they are requested. Who do you listen really, because I bet almost no one needs internet on their PCs in the woods or in the desert, where, lets be fair, not even LTE reaches or in any case, the speed will be very slow for web browsing.
    Matter of the fact is that the industry doesn't listen to customer needs, they just create needs for the customers and try to convince us that we need it. That is what drives sales and revenues and that is what they do. A big smelly s**t put in a nice wrap, to make it desirable.
  • FunBunny2 - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    "I also like how all big players in the industry say that they listen to customer needs"

    Jobs created stuff, and sometimes got it right, that folks didn't know they needed. IBM did that with the 360 and Burroughs with the B machines; both decades ago. IOW, the really smart folks are ahead of the sheep, the drudges do the backfill afterwards. arguably, Jobs did some of that, too.
  • MrSpadge - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    The comment summary appears to be: "I don't like it because it doesn't fit how I use my current PC & smartphone without the capabilities of these new machines"
  • iwod - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    The problem is price. Intel dont have anything at that Qualcomm Price range, and that does even include the cost of Modem which Qualcomm has it built in.
  • Gunbuster - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    The real comedy gold will be if Microsoft never uses ARM in their own device and uses all this to get a price cut from intel on the next Surface device CPU.
  • HStewart - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    Microsoft did this before with Window RT. ARM will never main stream Laptops that used Intel CPU and it be naïve to think Intel is not watching this for up and coming 10nm laptops - like to have at least 22 hour battery life - and one actually wonders why Intel's 10nm - which about the same as Samsung unreleased 7nm process is being delay. Because Intel is not stupid and planning for the future.
  • Wilco1 - Wednesday, December 6, 2017 - link

    You do realise Intel tried for many years to match performance and power consumption of Arm mobile devices? Many years and billions later, nothing remotely competitive. Even the latest and fastest desktop Atoms cannot beat current Android phones on performance - so forget about power...

    So you are expecting Intel will somehow pull a magic rabbit despite being behind on process technology?
  • Gunbuster - Thursday, December 7, 2017 - link

    If ARM was some magic performance/price/power consumption champion we would have seen a proliferation of phones doing desktop tasks in a dock, or chromebooks, or whatever. Bottom line it Atom and ARM both are not enough for real performance in a desktop work scenario. Lets stop pretending they are.
  • FunBunny2 - Thursday, December 7, 2017 - link

    "Bottom line it Atom and ARM both are not enough for real performance in a desktop work scenario. Lets stop pretending they are."

    as the saying goes, "there're precious few embarrassingly parallel user space problems". until there are, CICS (at the assembler level, of course) machines will rule the desktop. which is why we now see ARM based web server machines: they don't do all that much "computing".
  • Wilco1 - Thursday, December 7, 2017 - link

    That's rubbish. Arm servers are already competitive with the fastest x86 servers. The next generation supercomputers will use Arm. So performance is really not the issue. PC's are currently x86 mostly because of the Wintel inertia, not because of performance. With MS properly supporting 64-bit Arm, it is now possible to make desktop PCs as well as tablets and laptops. A low-end variant of e.g. Falkor or ThunderX2 would make quite a fast desktop.
  • vishwa108 - Thursday, December 7, 2017 - link

    " .... It’s a fun time to be a consumer....." - NOT when the gaggle of jokers have ONLY one thing in mind - yore shallow pockets made deeper by "Newsing". Hands up those who won't mind buying a book written by A Klepto entitled, "How to buy cheaply". Shorely yous area jesting!?

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