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  • PotatoMAN - Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - link

    I am not bagging on Antec cases or anything, I was just referring to Tostada's estimate and that while price was a point in his argument, that if you get an Antec case rather than his generic case, you will be spending more than Evan. While you may think it is time for an update, I disagree. I know that there are many viable alternatives to the Asus board, but if it isn't broke, why fix it?

    If it is a matter of price, I will conceed that the Shuttle may be a better buy. For an entry system it is hard to justify $10+ for a name. Not that I disagree with the Asus board, but to Evan I would like to point out that the Shuttle board according to newegg.com has about 3X the vote count as the Asus and about 4X the review count to get the rather high 4 star rating (same as the asus) on newegg (all customer reviews and votes). Granted, this is just one online merchant, it is a huge supplier of computing happiness fulfilling about 10,000+ orders a day. If the newegg reviews aren't enough, try to check out the customer support offered by the manufacturer. By simply visiting the mfgr's websites shuttle does seem a little more 'spiffy' and organized than asus'. Personally I would like to see an investigation into their real customer support... and then a good decision can be reached from there. But when you read AT's guides, you are still getting a slight bias from the reviewer's personal experiences (what else can they go by?) whether it be success or not... you just have to decide whether or not the credibility is there. Since I don't doubt the credibility of AT or Evan, I still would have to say that this is a good guide.
  • spartacvs - Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - link

    Patato,
    It's always good to hear from other peoples experiences. Just want to clarify few things.

    Many Antec cases are cheaper than the 63$ cost of the CaseEdge TS1 Mid Tower plus 300W PSU. We just want to point out that they are good alternative picks.

    As for the integrated video, I still think that, while you can have better results with a ATI card, it is good enaugh. And you can buy a video card later on.

    I cannot really tell if Asus is really better than the other boards because I don't have the experience. But others peoples seems to think asus is not perfect and you can have products as good as asus with other brands (not only shuttle). If you look at newegg product rating (one example among many). The asus board is rated 4 stars, just like many other boards (counting only thoses with many voters). The Asus A7N8X-X is the MB suggested since february. We just feel it might be time for a update, wheather it's asus or another brand. If Evan think nothing is better than this board based on his criteria, I respect his decision but we are just asking (and suggesting).

    As for the DVD playability, I admit it is a tradeoff. But I think I sould be suggested at the summary of the guide that you can buy a dvd player, a 19in crt and a decent 5.1 sound system. The expenses might not be worth only to watch dvd but if you play games on that computer, it is therefore worth the expenses.

    Oh, and I agree with you that Evan's guide is good and I thank him for doing them. It is not because we suggest some things that we means it's crap.

    Regards,
  • PotatoMAN - Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - link

    I would just like to say I love AT and all the effort I see here. For some reason, I get the vibe that they are AMD fanboys (slightly), but I can deal with that as I am one too =). Anyway, I would just like to point out that while Tostada's entry level system does shave off a few bucks, it doesn't include a better PSU as in Evan's. For the Antec, you are spending more than Evan would be.

    I work as an IT at a school and support about 200 PC's in a lab environment. I would have to say these computers get abused over and over again (they are used as food stands sometimes, and sometimes the food spills) but they keep on tickin'. For HDD's we use all different kind of brands, and as WD is probably ok on paper, I would have to say I have gotten more dead WD's w/in one month of operation than Seagates. Also, with power supplies, they are really not too bad if you go with a sparkle to save a few bucks over an antec.

    Out of all the copmuters I have worked on, I have only replaced a handful of power supplies (we use cheapos - powerman and q-max) and most of the time, it is a bad fan and the PSU can deliver stable rails. I would only offer the Antec if the user was seudo tech savvy and may upgrade their system - otherwise if they will not open the case sparkle is fine.

    Ram is another issue that really depends on the user. We run so many network oriented programs on the stations that you can notice a difference between 256 and 512 megs of RAM - but I do have to admit the only real difference is 1 time use situations (boot, and loading of a particular program). As an entry level system, 256 is probably fine - but if you go with integrated video you will need the 1/2 gig of RAM - which brings me to my next point.

    If you go with integrated video, you will need the extra memory. With memory being as much as it is, you really are not saving any money either way. As far as 2D IQ, I have always been partial to ATi over nVidia in this respect, but as far as the user is concerned they probably will not be able to notice a difference. But from an IT standpoint I like to have seperate components to their individual functions. Not that I expect the integrated video to break, but when you support 200+ computers you see some whacky stuff. Personally, I would like to replace just a video card rather than a motherboard (and video card).

    As far as the Shuttle vs. Asus boards - well, Asus is tried and true while Shuttle has been not up to the same level. Granted, I would say you can save money on buying a Shuttle, and it wouldn't be too much of a gamble, but I still think it is more of a gamble then buying an Asus.

    With the DVD playability - well, as a systems builder I want my clients to have as much versatility out of thier system as possible, and I would choose the alternative Even has set out as I see it totally justifies the additional cost. All in all, I guess all my rambling is good for is to point out that the system specs ultimately depends on the user. As far as an entry level user is concerned, the uses are more limited than that of a mid-high level user, but the different uses are appearant, and Even makes a valient attempt to try and point this out by listing alternatives. But in a world where possibilities are endles, it would be impossible to list every single GOOD possibility. I would just like to thank Evan for making this extensive guide (as well as others) because it makes life so much easier for some of us who need to shop for a system in a certain price range. If you wanna spend your time hunting down a deal to shave off $4, I am sure you can - but I for now trust the credibilty that Even and AT represent in an effort to save time. Thanks AT!
  • Cocophone - Monday, July 12, 2004 - link

    Crimson117, I like your logic.

    The alternative picks should not be just something else. There should be a compelling reason to pick them. For example, cheaper, or more features, or better looking.

  • crimson117 - Monday, July 12, 2004 - link

    And the CaseEdge TS1 isn't $40 shipped... to NYC shipping costs $20, to California it's $11 for shipping/tax.
  • crimson117 - Monday, July 12, 2004 - link

    Foxconn Case Alternative: "While this [Foxconn] case isn't quite as easy to use or as aesthetically appealing as the CaseEdge TS1..."

    If it's not as easy to use as the first pick, or as aethetically appealing, yet it costs $5 more, why do you consider it a good alternative?
  • justbrowzing - Monday, July 12, 2004 - link

    Evan,

    Re: lcd monitors, that's really great news & will be a big feather in your cap. This segment's in such rapid evolution right now & comprehensive, objective testing's sorely lacking.

    You can certainly break it out and have a stand-alone monitor buyer's guide & do monthly updates like your mobo & processor guides once you're over the testing hump. good luck with it
  • justbrowzing - Monday, July 12, 2004 - link

  • Agentbolt - Saturday, July 10, 2004 - link

    Evan,

    Thanks, the CaseEdge certainly looks cooler than most Antec cases. I will give it a look the next time I am looking for a bargain case. If someone asks me what PSU to buy I usually just say Antec to make sure there's no chance they come back to me a week later saying it blew up on them :)
  • Evan Lieb - Saturday, July 10, 2004 - link

    justbrowzing, you're absolutely right, it is a major oversight. Right now we're working on getting some more LCDs in the labs so that I can work with other editors in recommending the best LCDs for a particular segment of users. Bare with us. :)

    Agentbolt, only reason I didn't recommend the Antec is because I actually like the CaseEdge design and usability more than the Antec's. But, it does come with a very solid 300W Antec PSU, and that's certainly a big plus. We'll probably make it an alternative in a future guide.
  • Agentbolt - Saturday, July 10, 2004 - link

    Antec pretty much IS the best PSU, their cases are quite good too. Take a long look at the Antec Tostada mentioned that are for sale at NewEgg.com, for an entry level system they're pretty much perfect.
  • spartacvs - Saturday, July 10, 2004 - link

    Ok, I plan to change my computer soon. I still have a p3800eb! I'm not sure at 100% about what should I do but I will most probably go for a budget system. Reason is I'm low on budget and I can buy a cheap athlon cpu and change it later. Another reason I go for a budget system is because all the major changes coming up. I just don't want to wait for another 3-6 months before things settle up. Furthermore, my faith in techology has been lowered and I have decided to put money in some better investment (social and outdoor activities, travel, etc).

    I think the whole debate here is kinda a storm in a glass of water. But I will add my 2 cents because, after all, as a budget system buyer I'm the most concerned.

    I think the first thing to decide is wheter you go with onboard graphics. My opinion is that, while the integrated video are not the best option, it is still a very viable one. So my plan was to buy a board with integrated video. Later on (6 month to a year later), I can add a video board, change the cpu and increase memory at same time (I think it's better to do that at same time to avoid bottleneck).

    This is why I'm considering buying the MSI k7n2g-islr (for soem reasons I'm more confident in this one rather thna teh biostar wich are the only recents MB I know to have integrated graphics). BUT, my goals are the same as the guide: price and reliability. I will not overclock the system. This is why I'm on hold untill I decide what to do with the motherboard.
    While a excellent board, I feel the asus A7N8X-X model is about to be "somewhat outdated". Taugh choice.

    As for the case, I'm a bit on the cold side to buy a case and replace the power supply. I really consider the antec ones (slk1600, 3700, 2600 or even the new 2650). Again, taugh choice. Antec isn't a bad choice for sure but I'm like everybody: I want to make sure I have the best :)
  • justbrowzing - Saturday, July 10, 2004 - link

    Another vote for an sff guide here.

    Also, PLEASE include LCDs as alternative monitors in all guides. You just can't ignore the quality advances and the price drops, let alone the market penetration, any more. And real comparative info's hit-or-miss.

    This would be a real service to many readers.
  • Evan Lieb - Saturday, July 10, 2004 - link

    thebluesgnr,

    - Just because XBITLabs didn’t find any problems (whatever that means?) doesn’t mean 2D IQ is perfect. Did they compare it to, say, a Matrox workstation video card (as just one example of a far superior card for textual quality)? No, I believe they did not.

    - I don’t remember there being any difference between KT600 and nForce2 with SATA drives, and any real significant difference certainly would have been well documented by users, and that obviously has not been the case. If you want to test out your theory, run a controlled test (same HDD/cables, memory, CPU, video, device drivers, etc.) and run some HDD tests of your own choosing and report back.

    - Yes, 9600SE would be a nice alternative, but they are about $15-20 more expensive than 9200 cards, and gaming just isn’t high priority enough to be recommended as an alternative. Though it’s a very good alternative and a close call for sure.

    Tostada,

    - Sorry if my tone appears hostile, but the statements you’re referring to (our testing and experience with these boards/cards) are true, and documented on this web site. We have tested these cards and these boards and we’ve done the comparisons, and lots more that hasn't been published and that can be easily backed up by a whole community of enthusiasts. What do you want me to do, list off every article that we’ve ever done about 2D and 3D IQ testing, nForce2 motherboards, etc.? It’s all right here on the web site and in the forums. Also, I’m not sure why you think you’ll get a headache from such a resolution/Hz configuration. And even if you don’t like the recommended monitor, there is obviously a reason we list an alternative, the Diamondtron.

    - We listed the 9200 as an alternative? Have you read through the first page of our Buyer’s Guides before and our explanation of why we have alternative picks?

    - We haven’t reviewed that exact model (AN35N), but we have indeed reviewed it internally. Your contention that it’s some hugely popular board is overblown. It’s popular, yes.

    - Yes, the Antec is indeed a good case/PSU combination. We’ll have to look at it again for future guides.

    - It’ll be better than your nForce2 IGP.

    - DVD capability is very low priority for most entry level users. Plus, their systems usually just aren’t that good enough to fully enjoy a DVD movie because of how little is spent on components. That said, the Sony combo drive is very nice. But again, you’re ignoring the fact that we indeed listed a DVD combo drive as our alternative. It’s there for a reason you know.

    Agentbolt,

    Indeed, some may not mind saving $40 and going with nForce2 IGP 2D IQ if their eyes aren’t very sensitive. Tostada may be one of those people. That’s fine. But honestly, I just don’t see many entry level users trying to skimp on 2D text quality when that is literally 95%+ of what they’ll be using their system for. THAT is something that is very important, maybe even important enough to recommend a higher end monitor.
  • Agentbolt - Friday, July 9, 2004 - link

    Dig what you're saying, Tostada. Apex DVD players are the worst of the worst, I know. I was just making an example.

    For what it's worth, although I've never personally dealt with integrated video, the extra few FPS in older games the 9200SE could actually run and more "sharp" looking text and whatever else better 2D IQ entails might very well not be worth the extra 40 bucks being spent on the vid card. I don't know personally, since I've never compared the two, but I'd be willing to bet a lot of people would like spending the 40 bucks you save on the video card on other aspects of the system. Maybe even a DVD player :)
  • Tostada - Friday, July 9, 2004 - link

    Evan-

    Most of your responses end with you saying "We've done our own tests," yet you cite none of these tests. I'm asking an honest question, and you seem condescending and hostile. Some of the things you're saying are just silly. Do you honestly expect anybody to use 1280x1024 @ 65 Hz on that cheap monitor? It would give most people a headache. Can you see where I'm coming from? Can you see where a $40 video card on that monitor appears to be overbuying? Are you implying that all GeForce cards are crap, and that's why I can't tell the difference between the Ti 4200 and the nForce IGP hooked up to my KVM?

    If you're going to get a 9200 SE, why not pay the extra $10 for a 128-bit Radeon? Then you could honestly say that it's significantly faster than the nForce IGP.

    Now I think I see where you're coming from. You're recommending the Asus board because you gave it your Editor's Choice Silver award. I can accept that, although if you're going to be making these guides a front-page affair, it would only be reasonable for you to review hugely popular budget boards like the Shuttle AN35N.

    There are two Antec cases with 300W Antec power supplies at NewEgg for $49 + $15 shipping. If you care so much about the PSU, you can't turn around and tell me it's not worth $1 for an Antec.

    You're right, I haven't directly compared a cheap 9200SE to an nForce IGP. I should have one of the $53.50 Sapphire 128-bit R9200's showing up Tuesday, though, so I'll be sure to do a direct comparison at all resolutions on my nice 22". Maybe it'll be jaw-dropping. :)

    I don't suppose DVD capability is terribly important, but a Sony combo 52X CD-RW/DVD-ROM is $38.99. It seems like common sense. Besides, there's a difference between what they need and what makes them happy. For some reason, people just love to pop a DVD into the computer and check it out the first time they turn it on, even if they're not going to be watching movies on the thing. I think it's worth it for them to be able to do that. It gives them confidence in the quality and compatability of the machine. I can't imagine you would be able to find a person who would give up DVD compatability to save $10.

    Agentbolt-

    As I said before, I was simply trying to make a comparable case. I didn't realize he was talking about ditching the generic PSU and going with a semi-generic Sparkle. That said, I have not seen many PSU problems with low-end systems. Yeah, I've seen PSU's die, but it's usually actually the fan dying. The requirements on a low-end system's PSU and the requirments on your average enthusiast AT reader's PSU are vastly different. I'll retract anything I said about cheap cases for you picky guys, though, and just recommend the cheap Antec one to make everyone happy.

    Also, I wasn't talking about $30 for a DVD drive. It's $7.99 more than he was already spending! And I know three people who have Apex DVD players. Every one of them had the tray door fall off. Even most of the display models I've seen are falling apart.
  • thebluesgnr - Friday, July 9, 2004 - link

    - That is true. Although most PCChips boards are put together with bad PSUs, memory, etc, they do tend to give more problems in general. That doesn't mean every single board from ASUS is better than any board from PCChips. Like I mentioned, the M848LU is a very solid motherboard from PCChips (I'm not suggesting it for the guide).

    - The prices on newegg are just to show the ASUS board offers less while costing the same, or more. You are recommending the NF7-S as an alternative, so I assume you have no problems with the ABIT NF7 series. So why not replace the A7N8X-X with the NF7? One other advantage of it over the A7N8X-X is the rear panel, where Line In/Mic is not shared on a 5.1 setup. The MSI K7N2 Delta-L is also a better option in my opinion.

    - Yes. Check the article on xbitlabs, they didn't find any problems with the nForce2 IGP 2D image quality. Also, if you don't mind me asking, how would you compare the nForce2 IGP 2D quality with a GeForce off-board card?

    - In my experience the KT600 with a SATA hard drive feels more responsive than an nForce2 system with a PATA hard drive. If you could setup these combinations yourself I'd love to hear what you think of it.

    I do agree with the guide in the 256MB recommendation. And that's one more reason to get the nForce2 Ultra 400 instead of the nForce2 400 for free, this system will likely be upgraded in the future with another 256MB, if the user think it's necessary for their tastes.

    One last thing, why not upgrade the video card alternative to the GeForce FX 5200 or Radeon 9600SE? If the user wants "semi-serious" gaming I think the 9200 is still not going to cut it, and it will be a very good gaming system with one of these two.
  • Agentbolt - Friday, July 9, 2004 - link

    I think I've really got to agree with Evan here on most of his points. Biostar motherboards are certainly not BAD boards, but doing extensive research on them compared to ASUS or ABIT board indicated Biostar simply isn't as rock-solid high quality as those two mfgrs. If reliability is one of the two greatest concerns with this system, you just don't skimp on the motherboard. Biostar is good, but not as good as ABIT or ASUS. Simple as that.

    256MB of memory versus 512 MB really won't make that big a difference in performance. This is a computer that's meant to surf the internet, use Word, and maybe upload digital pictures onto. Everything else (games, movies, etc.) is gravy and not worth spending the extra 50 bucks on the memory.

    I have no comment on cheap cases because I just keep reusing the same beige one whenever I upgrade, but using the generic Codegen or PowMax PSU that comes with that case you're suggesting (Tostada) is the easiest way to kill a machine. Look at NewEgg reviews, the PSUs that come with these cases have good rails MAYBE 50% of the time, you're looking at an unstable setup at best and a toasted motherboard at worst. Even Sparkle ones are a little iffy, I might have gone with a Thermaltake (430 Watt True Power, 43$ shipped from NewEgg) instead.

    Who really watches DVDs on an entry level computer? Spend the 30 dollars you'd put into a computer DVD drive and buy an Apex DVD player from Wal-Mart and hook it up to your TV if it's really that important, most people who watch DVD's on their computers have big monitors and fancy sound setups for their computers, which this computer is not equipped with. I'm not saying NO ONE watches DVDs on their computer, or that it's impossible to do it, but I'm just not buying your argument that the target consumer for this computer is THAT interested in having DVDs on their computer.

    I can't comment on video or the hard drives, since I know nothing about either of your proposed components.

  • Evan Lieb - Friday, July 9, 2004 - link

    thebluesgnr,

    - The vast, vast majority of users will tell you they've experienced many more problems with PC Chips boards than they have with ASUS boards (as just one example). That includes nForce2 boards as well. Based on our testing, we agree with these many users’ experiences, we end up with similar issues in other words.

    - What does the price of an NF7 on Newegg compared to the price of an A7N8X-X on Newegg have to do with anything? You’re singling out one vendor out of thousands to prove a point that falls flat on its face when you take a look at prices at the other 10,000 vendors available online. Not that I don't understand what you're trying to say, but the price difference between the NF7 and A7N8X-X is maybe a dollar.

    - There's no such thing as "perfect" 2D IQ. Maybe you meant to say acceptable 2D IQ? nForce2 IGP IQ is hardly perfect.

    - I'd really like to know where you're hearing that SATA drives have noticeably faster access time. And no, faster access time numerically does not equal faster access time in the real world.

    Tostada,

    1) You aren’t spending $40 just for a few extra fps in games. Gaming is one of several reasons to purchase a 9200SE over integrated video.

    2) What does flipping back between nForce2 IGP and GeForce video have to do with a conversation regarding nForce2 IGP and Radeon video? And may I remind you, this is a Buyer’s Guide, we aren’t running benchmarks and we don’t need to present anything to support our position when we have done so in many previous reviews. And no, it’s not asinine to bring up resolutions higher than 1024x768 into the conversation when the monitor I recommended (whether it is discontinued or not hardly matters if it’s actually available) obviously can display adequately up to 1280x1024.

    3) I have looked at SR. If I miscalculated the performance difference between comparable drives you are more than willing to show me exactly what you’re talking about. I’ve done my own tests, though AnandTech hasn’t published them because our storage coverage has been weak for years.

    4) For entry level users there isn’t a big difference between 256MB and 512MB. It’s as simple as that.

    5) Firstly, I didn’t say “Why build your system around anything less than Asus”, I said “Why build your system around anything less”, referring to the A7N8X-X motherboard, not the manufacturer (ASUS) exclusively. Secondly, it is not fact that you can get motherboards as good as A7N8X series. We gave our nForce2 Editor’s Choice Silver award to ASUS (the gold went to Epox, but they don’t really make a budget nForce2 board that’s available in the U.S.). Run a poll on our forums if you’d like, you’ll quickly see the A7N8X line is the most popular for good reason; it’s a great series of motherboards, and in our opinion the best (next Epox’s line of nForce2 boards, specifically they’re older generation of high end nForce2 boards). Many other web sites share this our opinion and the general consensus. And might I add that I’ve tested every nForce2 board in existence save for perhaps nForce2 boards that are only made outside the U.S. How many have you tested? Not trying to be pompous here, but I do have a great deal of experience with nForce2 boards.

    6) You could always keep the PSU or sell it, you don’t have to scrap it. But anyway, there’s a reason we chose the CaseEdge, we like it and think many other users will too, and we think it’s one of the best in its class. Unfortunately it doesn’t come with a PSU we like, so we recommended another one. Should I also assume you haven’t directly compared a Sparkle PSU to the Austin PSU (the one that comes with the case you suggested)? Oh, and by the way, which Antec case with an Antec PSU are you referring to? Which model?

    7) Sure I have, I’ve used many nForce2 IGP boards (maybe every series, I can’t remember). And by entry level standards, they aren’t acceptable (perhaps “barely acceptable” was too harsh) because they simply aren’t the best you can get. Your belief is that nForce2 IGP 2D IQ isn’t that bad. I ask you, how would you know if you haven’t compared it to 9200/SE 2D IQ?

    And what’s with this contention that DVD capability is suddenly so important? If you honestly believe entry level users are prioritizing DVD playing, then you just don’t know the needs of entry level users. And I’d love to add another 256MB of PC3200 memory if it weren’t so much more money ($50) for an incredibly small performance difference they’ll never care about or hardly notice.
  • Tostada - Thursday, July 8, 2004 - link

    Evan -

    1) The 9200SE is close to the NF2 IGP in almost all benchmarks. Spending $40 for a couple FPS in some games is extremely hard to justify given the budget of this system.

    2) Please give more details of your 2D quality comparisons. I've flipped back and forth between an nForce2 IGP and various GeForce cards using my KVM switch on a $650 Trinitron, and at 1024x768 I simply can't tell them apart. Maybe some nForce2 boards have bad image quality, but I have seen nothing (nor have you presented anything) to support your position. Also, it's totally asinine for you to bring up performance at resolutions beyond 1024x768 seeing as you're using a low-end 17" CRT (a discontinued model at that) which is only capable of 1280x1024 @ 65Hz.

    3) Just look at StorageReview. The WD800JB is slightly slower/louder/hotter than the competition. It doesn't have FDB and some still use 40GB platters. I have heard tons of complaints all over the place of these drives starting to emit a high-pitched whine. Look to Google, Storage Review forums or the 589 comments on Newegg for examples.

    4) Yes, you can multitask with 256MB thanks to the Windows swapfile. I hope you're not trying to say there isn't a big difference between 256MB and 512MB in XP, though.

    5) "Why build your system around anything less than Asus?" Because you can get boards that are just as good for less. This is fact. Nforce boards have been out for a long time, and many cheap boards have been proven to have bullet-proof reliability. If you can't even afford more than 256MB RAM, how do you justify paying extra for zero benefit in the motherboard department?

    6) I was simply trying to list a comparable case. Am I to assume that for $63 you intend to buy a CaseEdge TS1, throw away the PSU, then buy a Sparkle PSU? Sparkle still isn't anything to write home about. If you're concerned about your PSU, you can get an Antec case with a 300W Antec PSU for $64 delivered from NewEgg. If you're already spending $63, it's absolutely worth an extra $1 to go with Antec.

    7) You cannot possibly have used a good nForce2 IGP board if you're calling the 2D quality barely acceptable.

    It just doesn't add up. I could understand playing it safe and going with an Asus board and the cheapest 3-year hard drive perhaps if you didn't have any experience with other products, but I would certainly hope you could give other products a fair shake before suggesting paying $550 for a system that has 256MB and can't play DVD's.

    I'm just trying to present the facts and my experience. I appoligize if I sound like a jerk.
  • thebluesgnr - Thursday, July 8, 2004 - link

    I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss PCChips. They have good mobos and bad mobos, like everyone else. For example, the ASUS A7V8X-X has given me a lot of troubles, and I've had basically none with the PCChips M848LU.

    Talking about mobos, I don't understand why the A7N8X-X is recommended over nForce2 Ultra 400 boards from ABIT or MSI. Even though I can't understand why you wouldn't use something like the Shuttle or BIOSTAR for this system there's absolutely no reason to choose the A7N8X-X over the ABIT NF7 or MSI K7N2 Delta-L. Both have better chipsets and are a few dollars cheaper on newegg right now (Delta is $63 versus $71 for the ASUS). Dual channel doesn't make much difference in AMD platforms, but when you're building a system with 256MB of RAM that's something to think of for the future.

    As for the on-board video vs off-board, I would love to see an article that justifies that extra $40 for the 9200SE. Really, xbitlabs has just reviewed the nForce2 IGP, VIA KM400 and SiS 741GX and 2D quality is perfect on the first. I would be interested to know how you would compare the Radeon with off-board video offerings from nVidia, cause I don't think the IGP of the nForce2 is the problem you have with it.

    And one last thing... I'd get a KT600 mobo with a SATA hard drive for basically the same price. The system will feel faster, which is something the targeted user will definately appreciate. The nForce2 gets a few FPS more in games, but that will hardly be noticed on this system (specially with a 9200SE) and the faster access time of a SATA disk will always be noticed.
  • skiboysteve - Thursday, July 8, 2004 - link

    im with evan on this one
  • GoodRevrnd - Thursday, July 8, 2004 - link

    PC Chips motherboards... lol. Having had to troubleshoot systems with those in it, I will hunt down and kill any reviewer I see who recommends using them in anything. *shudder*

    I think an extra 256mb of RAM is worth it though.
  • Evan Lieb - Thursday, July 8, 2004 - link

    Tostada,

    1) True, but the 9200SE is still a faster gaming card.

    2) I've compared both side by side with the same exact monitor. Text clarity IS simply better with a 9200SE, noticeably better at higher resolutions (not all budget users max out at 1024x768, either). Shielding has little to do with it.

    3) I'm really not so sure exactly what you're referring to. Where are you reading that WD 8MB cache drives are on the whole slower? Heck, even then, the performance difference is again pretty minute. Though, I disagree that WD drives are somehow less reliable. Take a look at SR's database if you want, or run a poll.

    4) I'm not sure what your point is. That you can't adequately multitask with 256MB of RAM? If so, that definitely isn't true. Though 512MB HELPS, it certainly doesn't help enough to be worth a $50+ asking price.

    5) Yes, all motherboard makers make lemons. But I've used the M7NCG. I've used the A7N8X/A7N8X-X/A7N8X-D/etc. And so have many many other users. The general consensus (that I agree with) is that ASUS's nForce2 boards are among the best, if not the best at what they are intended to to. The A7N8X-X included. Why build your system around anything less? If I wanted to do that, I'd recommend PNY memory, PC Chips motherboards, Codegen PSUs, etc.

    6) What does the computer case I recommended that comes with a 300W PSU have to do with anything when I indeed recommended a Sparkle 300W PSU? And unless you're equating the quality of Sparkle PSUs to generic no-name PSUs like Codegen or Austin (the brands that come with the case you recommended), I don’t see your point.

    7) Similarly, I’m surprised that you’d opt for nF2 IGP graphics with barely acceptable 2D IQ when entry level users absolutely prioritize great 2D IQ. Or no name power supplies. Or 2MB cache HDDs. Or worst of all, skimping out on motherboard quality. Those things are certainly more important than the minor performance boost an entry level user is going to see with 512MB of RAM, or the odd assumption that entry level users would need DVD watching capability on a budget box.
  • woodchuk - Thursday, July 8, 2004 - link

    I think both the Abit and Asus boards are exceptional in the XP generation and since
    I like my MP3's the Soundstorm seems as good
    as an Audigy. Also the nVidia drivers are
    more universally compatible than that gen
    of Via's.
    At least on the Buyer's guide some simple
    overall benchmarks would be exactly what
    my customers want to see when I try to
    explain why 512Mgs. really is worth the money
    over 256 with XP with more than one or two
    apps open at once; or more importantly,
    why they don't want a Dell Pentium 4.1 that comes with 128Mgs and a hostile BIOS.


  • Tostada - Thursday, July 8, 2004 - link

    Evan-

    Radeon 9200SE cards are not much better than the nForce IGP at gaming. Tom's did extensive benchmarks on integrated graphics in a February article, and the IGP even wins some. If you want "the worst 2D and 3D performance," there are SiS and VIA chipsets out there waiting for you. The nForce2 IGP is miles away from most integrated graphics.

    As far as 2D image quality, I won't deny that a Radeon will look better at higher resolutions, but most of the distortion in 2D comes from improper shielding in the same way bad integrated audio quality comes from bad shielding. Neither of these are things I've noticed with that Biostar board, and I've had several of them hooked up to a nice 22" Trinitron display to set them up.

    It's very ambiguous for you to say "WD 8MB cache drives are widely considered a bit faster." People who think that are probably remembering the days when WD's "Special Edition" drives were actually special. Storage Review quite simply refutes this with many, many benchmarks. WD drives are a bit slower, a bit hotter and a bit louder. The only benefit is that they are about $3 to $5 cheaper, which may or may not be a reasonable trade-off.

    Specifically relevant to your guide is the fact that the WD800JB does not use FDB, and it does use 40GB platters. All the competition uses 80GB platters. The WD800JB is simply an outdated drive. Look around and you'll see that WD drives get more complaints of drives dying within a month of purchase, more RMA's in general, and very many people talk about WD drives that start to emit a high-pitched whine after a few months. Most hardware guys I know have long since switched to using Samsung/Seagate before WD, and those who aren't still sore over the Deathstar even prefer Hitachi.

    True, you can get by in XP without 512MB, but with 256MB just running your little sister's favorites like AIM, Outlook and Internet Explorer at the same time starts hitting the swapfile. I suppose I'm trying too hard to get every Joe AOL-user a really nice system... I mean, if Dell is still selling machines with 128MB, I suppose I can build one with 256MB and tell them to stick to Firefox and Thunderbird if they want speed.

    That's a little harsh to call Biostar "bottom of the barrel." The M7NCG is an extremely solid board. I wouldn't normally think of Shuttle as a great company, either, but the AN35N is solid, too. I understand that when you don't have personal experience it's better to go with a tried-and-true manufacturer, but don't fool yourself into thinking that Asus never made a lemon. All the nForce2 boards out there have been around awhile, and the jury is long since in on which ones have problems.

    And the complaint about a 300W generic PSU certainly came out of left-field. The CaseEdge TS-01 also has a generic 300W PSU, and your guide itself recommends a $23 Sparkle PSU. We'd all love to use Enermax or Antec PSU's in every system, but that's not going to happen. I was simply listing a cute mATX case to fit a cute mATX motherboard. FoxConn makes nice cheap cases, but Apex cases are easier to work with (and seem higher quality) on the inside.

    Making an entry level system is about tradeoffs. I'm just surprised AT has chosen to make a system that only has 256MB and can't read DVD's.
  • skiboysteve - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    i whole heartidly disagree Grelk.

    Taking my 1.46ghz 1700+ tbredB all the way to 2.3ghz is very, very noticeable.

    And the 9500 nonpro i soft moded and overclocked into a 9800 Pro++ is really damn noticeable as well.

    All on air cooling...


    Not to mention, at the time i bought these i would have spent over $1000 more to not even reach these nonstock unbuyable performance levels
  • Grelk - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    Overclocking is overrated. The real-word benefits are debatable in an entry-level system. I understand that some people find this a fun and challenging part of computing but for many others this is way down the list of priorities. Silence and reliability are far more important for me.
  • pervisanathema - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    CAS 3 RAM is ridiculous. Crucial makes a CAS 2.5 PC2100 module for $46. Since you clearly have not built a system for overclocking, this would be a much better choice.



  • pervisanathema - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    CAS 3 RAM is ridiculous. Crucial makes a CAS 2.5 PC2100 module for $46. Since you clearly have not built a system for overclocking, this would be a much better choice.



  • Z80 - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    Watch the Hot Deals forum and you can probably shave another $100 off the cost of this system as long as you don't mind hassling with rebates. I agree with Cocophone on using the Shuttle AN35N-Ultra instead of the Asus MB. It's $10 cheaper, supports dual channel memory and overclocks very well. Take that $10 and upgrade from an XP 2000 to an XP 2100, a proven overclocker's CPU.
  • Cocophone - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    For a budget system why should I pick the Asus motherboard over a Shuttle AN35N-Ultra.

    Neither board has firewire.

    I don't think a budget system would be overclocked, so alot of bios setting would not be used. I plan on dropping a 2000XP CPU and either 256 or 512 of ram and run with that.
  • computerfan - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    I can't wait for the overclocking and SFF guides. I just bought an Antec Aria, but haven't been able to find an amazing microATX mobo. I am very curious what you'd suggest. Something more high end that supports 400/400 MHz fsb dual channel.
    I'm actually thinking that with the SFF buyers guide, you'll need to make it low/mid range and then have the alternatives be for a high end SFF PC.

    Keep up the good work
  • Anand Lal Shimpi - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    canadianfbi

    You read our minds :) We will eventually have a SFF buyer's guide, but we're waiting to build up a few more SFF reviews before introducing it.

    Take care,
    Anand
  • canadianfbi - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    I'd like to add a vote for an SFF guide. The SFF system I want to build (with TV-out and possibly TV capture, using it as kind of a video/audio server for a home theater) is too specific to be in a guide I believe, but I'm sure there are plenty of people building SFF systems in general, and a guide would probably be especially helpful here given the relative newness of that area.
  • Anand Lal Shimpi - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    The overclocker's guide is coming, but it won't be published until the end of July. We wanted to get to it sooner but we've got a couple of big motherboard roundups that have to be published first which unfortunately pushed that buyer's guide back to the end of the month.

    On the bright side, since it'll be published at the end of the month the overclocker's guide will be able to be even more up to date with its recommendations as more parts should be available by then.

    Take care,
    Anand
  • lazerasa - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    I vote we need another overclocker system guide ASAP!
  • StormGod - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    I agree that these guides (especially the entry-level) are an excellent addition to AT but there is one very obvious omission from them. Specifically, a lack of actual benchmarking. We all know that AT has these parts being recommended on hand from previous reviews. Why not take the extra time to assemble both the primary and alternative recommended machines and run at least a small battery of benchmarks? Let us see first hand what spending $546 instead of the mid-level price means to real-world performance. At the very least, try it for a month and see what kind of response you get. I suspect that AT readers will overwhelmingly prefer to see actual performance data than to make a pick basically blindly.
  • gimper48 - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    WHERE IS OUR OVERCLOCKER GUIDES
  • U4EA - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    I built a system based on this guide a few months ago (interestingly enough, barely anything has changed in the guide) and am very happy with it.

    .. barring the borked WD harddrive which I had to get changed for a Seagate.

    I love these guides btw .. I think Anandtech is doing a terriffic job on them. My only gripe is that we keep hearing about the new guides that will be included once the schedule is finalized etc, but for the past 2 months or so, all we've seen are the high-end, mid-range and entry-level guides.
  • Evan Lieb - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    As far as the system you're recommending Tostada....if you really want to go with a bottom of the barrel manufacturer like Biostar, the absolute worst 2D and 3D video performance you can find on the market in the nForce2 IGP, and a 2MB cache 80GB HDD instead of an 8MB cache HDD, then be my guest. ;)

    Oh, and the Apex case comes with a no name 300W PSU. Another huge no no.
  • Evan Lieb - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    Degrador, it has been fixed. :)

    Tostada, no, even at 1024x768 the text quality difference between an nForce2 IGP board and an ATI 9200 board is quite noticeable. It's even fairly noticeable at 800x600. Not sure what IGP boards you have used, but I've used basically all of them. They're OK if you want cheap video with occasional gaming, but 9200 cards are better if you want even better gaming and noticeably better 2D text quality.

    As far as the keyboard/mouse, we explained our reasoning quite clearly. A keyboard/mouse is a much more individualized purchase than, per your example, a set of speakers. You're constantly feeling and touching a keyboard/mouse, so our recommendation would be based purely on opinion, on personal preference. That's really not what we want.

    WD 8MB cache drives are widely considered a bit faster than comparable Seagate/Samsung/Hitachi 8MB cache drives, are on the whole a bit cheaper, and are generally considered very reliable. They really don't run much hotter than comparable drives, and they are only noticeably louder than Seagate drives. The difference is minute, at best, either way you look at it.

    I'm not sure what your definition of crippling is, but 256MB of RAM is hardly crippling for an entry level Windows XP machine. How many times is an entry level user going to notice a boost in performance with more than 256MB of memory? Hardly many times at all, and certainly not enough times that they would actually be compelled to spend $50 or more. And since you mentioned it, exactly where are these "many other places" that you could cut costs in this system?
  • Tostada - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    If I was going to spend $546 on an entry level system (with monitors and speakers), I think this would be a MUCH better system:

    $180 NEC 17" SuperBright Diamondtron
    $57 Athlon XP 2000+ T-bred Retail
    $61 Biostar M7NCG 400 nForce 2 dual-channel IGP
    $64 Samsung 80G
    $90 2 x 256MB Corsair PC3200 CL2.5 Value Select
    $40 Sony 52x32x52x16 combo DVD / CD-RW drive
    $32 Apex 300W case
    $20 Creative SBS250 speakers

    $544 delivered from newegg.

    A better monitor, twice the RAM, a dual-channel board, and the ability to play DVD's for $4 less.

    I would generally spend the extra $23 to get an Athlon XP 2500+ Barton, though.
  • Tostada - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    I really must (as always) beg to differ on this system. It makes me wonder if the author of the guide has built many entry level systems for average people.

    In this price range, buying a video card is a complete waste of money unless you need the DVI output (which the $40 Radeon listed doesn't have). The nForce2 IGP does very well, and text quality is perfect for the average user (who isn't going over 1024x768 anyway).

    A computer pretty much needs a keyboard. I find it quite odd that the price of speakers is included, but a keyboard/mouse is not. You can use a computer without speakers.

    I also find it odd that the guides are sticking to Western Digital drives, especially the WD800JB. WD's specs for their 80G drives are quite bad -- they reserve the right to give you 40G platters. WD drives (with exception of the Raptor) are generally louder, hotter and slower than most of the competition from Samsung/Hitachi/Seagate.

    And honestly, 256MB is pushing the limits of what is acceptable. There are many other places to cut costs before you cripple a machine with 256MB RAM.
  • Frallan - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    I like this system I find it to be really good value for money since you acctually found good products that are also decent performers.
    But I would really like to se the Overclockers guide as well :0)
  • Degrador - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    I think I pointed this out last time too with the cpu alternative: "All this adds up to noticeably better performance that, depending on what applications are run, you may or may not notice". Please, please, please can you fix this? It really bugs me :)
  • Apologiliac - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    *fond
  • Apologiliac - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link

    I'm particularly found of this weeks budget system.

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