AMD wasn't just resting on their laurels -- they were completely passed out after going on a weekend bender celebrating their total triumph over Intel in the HEDT/workstation market.
Nice to see them finally waking up, but if they are going to wait another 2 years before releasing a Zen 4 TR then Intel is going to take back the workstation market.
Yeah - I'm a lot more interested in this potential Sapphire Rapids-X HEDT lineup Intel apparently has in the works, I'm almost positively foaming at the mouth at the idea of 4 or even 6, 8 channel (as in, DIMMs, not the sub channels) DDR5.
To me there isn't much comparison between Threadripper Pro to Intel Xeon solutions for workstations. I'd take Threadripper every day. Intel costs 2-3x more for no reason. Not sure what sapphire rapids is going to bring but it's going to have to be really good and pretty reasonable.
Agreed, of course. This was a great write up by Ian! I can't quite recall what Intel's upcoming "process 7" is on the nm scale--a combination of 7nm + 10 nm, I seem to recall--since Intel isn't using the nm scale as AMD uses. I think that AMD has quite a few tricks to pull out of its hat this year. Should be an exciting year for both companies, if both of them are able to execute on their announced production goals.
For a single-CPU workstation, I'm not sure Intel are pushing the Xeon barrow any more - now that ECC is available using the Core CPU + W series chipset based M/Board.
Not sure about that. It's true they had little competitive pressure on the workstation front, but also very strong demand for a limited supply of Zen 3 dies in the server and desktop markets. So, it's not hard to see why this took so long.
I agree that they won't be able to afford such a long delay for the Zen 4 Threadripper, but hopefully the supply crunch for semiconductors won't be as bad then, either.
Yes, that seems to be a theme here; also "TR Pro 5995 WX has roughly 77% more L3 cache (256 MB versus 57 MB)" . 256/57 ? That almost 4.5 times the L3. Hope those percentages aren't due to a bug in the FPU of the new workstation CPU 😁
It good to see AMD servicing this segment with fresh products and extending the lead. They havent had to because Intel has basically abandoned it. True SPR will change the dynamics and bring competition back finally. Looking forward to that launch and the subsequent Zen4 TR 6XXX lineup. Yay competition!
Yeah, there was a rumor reported of a SPR workstation "Fishhawk Falls" with ddr5 and pcie5. I didn't see a mention of HBM for it, but it's coming for the supercomputer applications.
No, they didn't. They dutifully refreshed Xeon W with Ice Lake SP, although that still doesn't catch them up to Threadripper, for many/most applications. It's basically a given they'll offer a new Xeon W based on Sapphire Rapids, which uses the same Golden Cove cores and "Intel 7" process as Alder Lake.
So for memory intensive workloads you may be better off with the F-series Epyc SKUs which, despite the lower clocks, all have 8 chiplets and 256MB of L3 cache, plus they are dual-CPU capable. If you can find them, that is...
Too little too late? Basically the 59[567]5WX are just slightly higher binned 7[345]F3… with 10 higher turbo and 10-20% higher base clock. Even if you need that increase, with Genoa launching this year… given amd’s generational ipc improvements, not to mention increasing clocks, it’ll very likely be faster still. Not to mention all the other improvements like pcie5/cxl, ddr5, …
It would be nice if AMD took care of their existing customers and had a viable upgrade path for existing 3000 series systems. Having to buy an entirely new system is not customer friendly.
With the CPU’s being vendor locked to Lenovo on these systems, it would make a lot of sense for Lenovo to have an upgrade option for older systems where they swap out the 3000 series CPU for a newer 5000 series CPU, and then resell the 3000 series chip in a ‘used’ or ‘refurbished’ system.
Maintaining socket compatibility over multiple generations is very customer friendly of AMD, but it’s ultimately a pointless marketing gimmick unless customers have the ability to do upgrades.
Threadripper 3960X owner here. Rebuilt my TR system from a Fractal Define 7 case into a little Cerberus-X. Recently swapped my Asus board for a Gigabyte one cuz I needed Thunderbolt (Booting Linux off a TB SSD I can move laptop/desktop). I don't mind investing $$$$$ in a system like mine, where I have such CHOICES, and at least a CHANCE at upgradeability, but these vendor locked OEM systems suck, and you'll never catch me buying one.
Intel statement in the q4 earnings transcript is "we expect to ship initial SKUs of Sapphire Rapids to select customers in Q1". Hey ... maybe they're already shipping to Lenovo.
on TR 5K I observed December posted as early as October 2021 at SA "TR 5K derived from Milan it go either way at 1,057,274 units sitting in a finished good cage needed as a gross margin price support q1/q2 parallel V5x refresh on Rembrandt for sales bridging into an AMD design scramble to make Zen 4 fit Microsoft's Win 11 Intel platform (sandbox) reconfiguration which is no small feat".
On Lenovo TR 5K platform lock in, if you're an HP enterprise account ask because HP and know HP will keep it hush hush with Intel just south on 101.
Personally, I think most of the 1 M units are already sold on AMD OEM direct customer sales to keep channel from ransoming them for outrageous prices tied in coprocessing accelerator sale.
That's what I'd have thought, but apparently tasks like computational fluid dynamics (CFD) are still a heavy lift, even for cutting-edge workstations. Here are some stats on the CFD simulations involved in designing the new generation of Formula One chassis:
"The CFD project used over 1,150 AWS compute cores to run detailed simulations of over 550 million data points that model the impact of one car's aerodynamic wake on another. Using the unmatched scalability of AWS, F1 was able to reduce the average time to run simulations by 80%—from 60 hours down to 12 hours."
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Blastdoor - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
AMD wasn't just resting on their laurels -- they were completely passed out after going on a weekend bender celebrating their total triumph over Intel in the HEDT/workstation market.Nice to see them finally waking up, but if they are going to wait another 2 years before releasing a Zen 4 TR then Intel is going to take back the workstation market.
AshlayW - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
Yeah - I'm a lot more interested in this potential Sapphire Rapids-X HEDT lineup Intel apparently has in the works, I'm almost positively foaming at the mouth at the idea of 4 or even 6, 8 channel (as in, DIMMs, not the sub channels) DDR5.CBeddoe - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
To me there isn't much comparison between Threadripper Pro to Intel Xeon solutions for workstations. I'd take Threadripper every day.Intel costs 2-3x more for no reason.
Not sure what sapphire rapids is going to bring but it's going to have to be really good and pretty reasonable.
WaltC - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
Agreed, of course. This was a great write up by Ian! I can't quite recall what Intel's upcoming "process 7" is on the nm scale--a combination of 7nm + 10 nm, I seem to recall--since Intel isn't using the nm scale as AMD uses. I think that AMD has quite a few tricks to pull out of its hat this year. Should be an exciting year for both companies, if both of them are able to execute on their announced production goals.kwohlt - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
What do you mean the nm scale? You don't actually think TSMC's 7nm literally measures 7nm in size, do you?JayNor - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
Did Ian contribute?ct909 - Monday, April 11, 2022 - link
For a single-CPU workstation, I'm not sure Intel are pushing the Xeon barrow any more - now that ECC is available using the Core CPU + W series chipset based M/Board.mode_13h - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
> they were completely passed outNot sure about that. It's true they had little competitive pressure on the workstation front, but also very strong demand for a limited supply of Zen 3 dies in the server and desktop markets. So, it's not hard to see why this took so long.
I agree that they won't be able to afford such a long delay for the Zen 4 Threadripper, but hopefully the supply crunch for semiconductors won't be as bad then, either.
StevoLincolnite - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
AMD wasn't resting on their laurels.There was a chip shortage... And AMD was using all their chips for servers rather than HEDT/Workstations... Which is actually more profitable.
Oxford Guy - Thursday, March 17, 2022 - link
And ‘consoles’ and 6500 XTs.Pjotr - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
"...50% more PCIe lanes than the Xeon W-3375 (128 versus 64)"Not sure which math you're using here... ?
IGTrading - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
That's 100% more than Intel :)eastcoast_pete - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
Yes, that seems to be a theme here; also "TR Pro 5995 WX has roughly 77% more L3 cache (256 MB versus 57 MB)" . 256/57 ? That almost 4.5 times the L3. Hope those percentages aren't due to a bug in the FPU of the new workstation CPU 😁psyclist80 - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
It good to see AMD servicing this segment with fresh products and extending the lead. They havent had to because Intel has basically abandoned it. True SPR will change the dynamics and bring competition back finally. Looking forward to that launch and the subsequent Zen4 TR 6XXX lineup. Yay competition!JayNor - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
Yeah, there was a rumor reported of a SPR workstation "Fishhawk Falls" with ddr5 and pcie5. I didn't see a mention of HBM for it, but it's coming for the supercomputer applications.mode_13h - Wednesday, March 9, 2022 - link
> Intel has basically abandoned it.No, they didn't. They dutifully refreshed Xeon W with Ice Lake SP, although that still doesn't catch them up to Threadripper, for many/most applications. It's basically a given they'll offer a new Xeon W based on Sapphire Rapids, which uses the same Golden Cove cores and "Intel 7" process as Alder Lake.
Flunk - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
It's hard to tell how these stack up without knowing the prices. Based on specs I imagine those are going to be pretty high.eSyr - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
How is it possible to get 256 MiB of L3 cache with less than 8 CCDs (per model lineup table)?shabby - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
I think the disabled ccd's have the cache enabled, so the cache is still fully functional while the rest of the core probably has defects.noobmaster69 - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
The article has been updated. There’s no disabled CCD’s, and only the top SKU has 256MB L3 cache.kobblestown - Wednesday, March 9, 2022 - link
That's unfortunate. With 2 chiplets you only get half of the memory bandwidth of the 8 channel memory. You need at least 4 chiplets to get the full deal: https://www.servethehome.com/amd-epyc-7002-rome-cp...So for memory intensive workloads you may be better off with the F-series Epyc SKUs which, despite the lower clocks, all have 8 chiplets and 256MB of L3 cache, plus they are dual-CPU capable. If you can find them, that is...
domih - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
Is Lenovo vendor locking TR 5000 Pro to its ThinkStation models using AMD PSB?noobmaster69 - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
Yes, they are locking the CPU’s to their own systems with the security fuses on the CPU.bernstein - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
Too little too late?
Basically the 59[567]5WX are just slightly higher binned 7[345]F3… with 10 higher turbo and 10-20% higher base clock.
Even if you need that increase, with Genoa launching this year… given amd’s generational ipc improvements, not to mention increasing clocks, it’ll very likely be faster still. Not to mention all the other improvements like pcie5/cxl, ddr5, …
noobmaster69 - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
It would be nice if AMD took care of their existing customers and had a viable upgrade path for existing 3000 series systems. Having to buy an entirely new system is not customer friendly.With the CPU’s being vendor locked to Lenovo on these systems, it would make a lot of sense for Lenovo to have an upgrade option for older systems where they swap out the 3000 series CPU for a newer 5000 series CPU, and then resell the 3000 series chip in a ‘used’ or ‘refurbished’ system.
Maintaining socket compatibility over multiple generations is very customer friendly of AMD, but it’s ultimately a pointless marketing gimmick unless customers have the ability to do upgrades.
hubick - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
Threadripper 3960X owner here. Rebuilt my TR system from a Fractal Define 7 case into a little Cerberus-X. Recently swapped my Asus board for a Gigabyte one cuz I needed Thunderbolt (Booting Linux off a TB SSD I can move laptop/desktop). I don't mind investing $$$$$ in a system like mine, where I have such CHOICES, and at least a CHANCE at upgradeability, but these vendor locked OEM systems suck, and you'll never catch me buying one.mode_13h - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
This can't be unrelated to Apple's M1 Ultra announcement. AMD's workstation partners must be up in arms (sorry) about that.Obviously, this has been in the works, for a while. However, the precise timing of the announcement is unlikely to be a coincidence.
JayNor - Tuesday, March 8, 2022 - link
Intel statement in the q4 earnings transcript is "we expect to ship initial SKUs of Sapphire Rapids to select customers in Q1". Hey ... maybe they're already shipping to Lenovo.Mike Bruzzone - Wednesday, March 9, 2022 - link
on TR 5K I observed December posted as early as October 2021 at SA "TR 5K derived from Milan it go either way at 1,057,274 units sitting in a finished good cage needed as a gross margin price support q1/q2 parallel V5x refresh on Rembrandt for sales bridging into an AMD design scramble to make Zen 4 fit Microsoft's Win 11 Intel platform (sandbox) reconfiguration which is no small feat".On Lenovo TR 5K platform lock in, if you're an HP enterprise account ask because HP and know HP will keep it hush hush with Intel just south on 101.
Personally, I think most of the 1 M units are already sold on AMD OEM direct customer sales to keep channel from ransoming them for outrageous prices tied in coprocessing accelerator sale.
Mike Bruzzone, Camp Marketing
bwj - Thursday, March 10, 2022 - link
Relatedly, 3xxx-series P620 models are now 50% off. Might actually make sense for some users.mode_13h - Friday, March 11, 2022 - link
Nice!COtech - Thursday, March 17, 2022 - link
What are the biggest uses of these workstations ? Engineering CAD? Digital media creation ?Are the capabilities of the Desktop market creeping up into this space with the higher core count flagship chips ?
mode_13h - Friday, March 18, 2022 - link
That's what I'd have thought, but apparently tasks like computational fluid dynamics (CFD) are still a heavy lift, even for cutting-edge workstations. Here are some stats on the CFD simulations involved in designing the new generation of Formula One chassis:"The CFD project used over 1,150 AWS compute cores to run detailed simulations of over 550 million data points that model the impact of one car's aerodynamic wake on another. Using the unmatched scalability of AWS, F1 was able to reduce the average time to run simulations by 80%—from 60 hours down to 12 hours."
Source: https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/aws/formula-1-use...
So, I'm guessing that 60-hour baseline time was from something like a 128-core workstation.
kath1mack - Thursday, April 14, 2022 - link
Interesting