To believe what Laura is saying undermines a lot of what human beings are and what we do. Why would Michael Jordan strive to be the best basketball player when he could just be decent? Why even be in the pros when he could playing amateur? Why play amateur when he could play in the backyard with family? Why play basketball when he could play nerf basketball? Why play nerf basketball when he could just play basketball on a console with a fake crowd cheering him on? Why play on a console when he could just watch others on TV play the sport for him? Why watch it on TV when he could just close his eyes and dream about playing basketball?
Why? Because we are a competitive and challenging race. We like knocking down barriers, we like being the best, we like proving we can do what nobody else can do, paving our own individuality. Guitar Hero won't challenge your child for long and eventually they will want to build on that - to take their skill and apply it to something more difficult.
If you want to introduce your kid to basketball, you don't wait until he's 16, hand him a ball and then tell him to dunk it. You start sooner than that, as soon as he can roll any old ball along the floor. Then some day maybe he can dribble or shoot a nerf ball into a hoop or play catch. You play the games on TV and let him listen in on it. Everything related becomes a part of that. Working out, exercising. It all becomes necessary building blocks.
If you want your kid to play an instrument the first part is making sure they enjoy music, listen to it, dance to it, enjoy it! Guitar Hero is just another window into music, spurring their imagination forward and creating dreams of what they could become. Everyone who dreams big needs that reminder of what they are dreaming for. More accessibility into music, in any way shape or form is not a bad thing. It only becomes a problem when your child refuses to learn a guitar because they enjoy guitar hero too much. And when you come to that point you have to really ask yourself if your child even wants to actually play a real guitar or you have to ask them that. Heck, show them the videos on youtube of all the young kids who can play real video game music on their guitars. It's always, always 100x more impressive than the guitar hero videos.
Sometimes we focus too much on the end result that we forget all the building blocks along the way that lead to it. That's why sometimes the most skilled individuals have so much trouble being teachers, they've forgotten where they started from.
You compared Guitar Hero to playing an instrument. Guitar Hero does not equal playing an instrument. When you are done playing Guitar Hero that is it, it does not translate to doing something in reality.
Your dish scenario implies that the magic is real and the end result of each process is the same. So obviously you would choose magic cleaning dishes to hard cleaning dishes if the end result was clean dishes.
You can choose Guitar Hero, but the end result is different. Hope that makes some sense.
I was about to post a long post about wtf I think this sort of topic doesn't at all belong on the front page(s) of AT. But... I think I'll wait it out and let my anti-Derek side cool off. Man I really do wanna slam the hammer down though... Parenting-101 on AT? Lmao, guess I'll swing over to overclockers.com and see what bias-injected opinions their lousy Ed has to say. Least Xbit labs knows where the meat is at... Ciao.
I think I agree with your wife. Children need to learn to work hard and invest time in at least some of the activities they do. I have no problem with TV, internet and computer games, but children also need to learn to focus and persist.
I have played guitar since the age of 7-8. I originally became interested in music because as a toddler, my parent gave me a (real) keyboard, flute, miniature drum kit, that sort of things (I'm not sure what I would have done if my parents would have given me a game console and these games instead). I've studied classical guitar and music theory for 10 years, and I play electrical guitar for hours each day. As a result, I'm quite good at it. For some reason, people always want to challenge me to play these games, because somehow, it seems to validate their "skill", if they can win from me, they can imagine to play on a real stage in front of a real crowd, too. I find it terribly embarrassing how people try to relate to real musicians and rockstars, not because I'm so damn pretentious, but because they equate their plastic toy with years of blood, sweat and tears, and shitloads of time invested. If even adults have a slight perceptional problem here, I can see how it might have a negative influence on children.
If children "learn" art with some computer program that draws perfect paintings for them, music with some plastic controllers and fake crowd sounds, or sports with some pitiful simulation, they basically learn nothing and will have no real skills at a later age. What's more, depending on the rest of their education ofcourse, they will have no persistence and never have learned to work hard for something.
I'm not saying that it's wrong for children to play these games per se; not if they have other, real-life activities that help them to develop and find out things to do in life. Next to TV and computer games, there should be time for real sports, music, drawing or whatever hobby that develops skill and persistence. And some social skills, perhaps. This balance is important, and I think children have too much "useless" entertainment these days.
Anyway, I'm grateful that my parents motivated and supported me to take up music and sports – they always said you can do anything you want, but you will do something. If you are like that with your children, I don't think it matters much if they play these games in their spare time.
And to wrap things up – I don't get the attraction of this game, it's basically little more than an arcade sort of game which bears no relation to actually playing music at all. I can understand how one would like to play games with lots of shooting, violence, rape and other things that are not erm... advised in a real life context, but twiddling a plastic toy guitar with a fake crowd cheering is beyond me.
I haven't read all the responses, so if something similar has already been said I apologize.
That said, I have a couple of observations to make.
First being, it sounds to me like you're planning on not purchasing the game solely because you don't think it's appropriate for your daughter. She's 2 years old! So you keep it packed up and on the top shelf of a closet somewhere and only play it when she's sound asleep or out at the grandparent's house or out at the park with Mom or whatever. I'd be surprised if you don't own a single movie that you wouldn't want her watching any time soon... as a fellow 'grownup' I personally must say I can only take so many cartoons and/or so much 'edutainment'. So if this is your only significant argument for not buying the game, I disagree. It's not like we're talking about keeping a porn collection or something. If you keep it put away properly when the child is around, I doubt she'd be getting into it any time soon, not to mention I'm not sure how many
2yo's could manage to get the game, put it into the appropriate gaming system (all the while ignoring the interesting components like the 'drum set') start it up and find something inappropriate to listen to without someone noticing, if she can then either she's one gifted child or you guys seriously need to consider some parenting classes, in particular ones that focus on being observant :) (Just to avoid any unintended insult this is intended as a sarcastic statement, personally I've found that most people who would fall into such a category would not be having a debate such as this)
For the sake of argument, let's address the issues against your daughter playing the game.
Let's start with the 'taking the joy out of real life activities' concept. Beginning with the dish washing example. That sounds like a great game, I'd rush to copyright the idea if I were you. But kidding aside, say such a game did exist, sure after playing the game you might never want to wash dishes the old way again, but guess what: A) you've still got a sink full of dirty dishes that needs washing the old way. And B) Guess what? You never wanted to wash them the old way to begin with, I mean come on, who WANTS to wash dishes? So did playing the game REALLY influence your view on washing dishes, I doubt it, there's even a remote chance, if you've got a good imagination, that playing the game could give you ideas as to how to enjoy actually washing the dishes (well, ok, not enjoy but at least make it less tedious... "Finally, the perfectly clean dish is dried and placed into the cabinet! THE CROWD GOES WILD!!!!!!!!" But anyway the point is, that unless there is some amazing leap in virtual reality technology games will not replace reality during our, or even your daughter's lifetime. IMO this particular objection is ridiculous.
When it comes down to it, there are two basic components to doing things in life. There's talent, and training. One without the other is pretty much useless. However, especially when it comes to artistic things like music, talent is by far the dominant of the two. Even if your daughter has no talent for piano, sure you could start her on piano lessons at 2 or 3 or 4, and force her to practice for the next 12-16 years give or take and she might become a fairly good pianist, it's unlikely that she'll ever enjoy it, and there will always be some 4 year old prodigy out there that can blow her out of the water no mater how hard she practices. The point is, just as you said, there is something much more satisfying about achieving something real in real life.
What it comes down to is this: Will there be more kids giving up on playing guitar since games like guitar hero and rock band have come out? I strongly suspect the answer is yes. But I also suspect, that the reason is not that the games themselves will make them give up, I believe that more kids will be quitting playing guitar because more kids will be tempted to TRY to play guitar, and I believe that is a very good thing. I think it's insane to believe that the next generation will miss out on any of it's potential great musicians because they gave up because it wasn't as fun as playing Rock Band 2. I'm not an expert but I believe that when someone has a talent for something, they enjoy doing it, sure even the best musicians get tired of practicing from time to time, but they persevere, not because they never played rock band :) but because they enjoy playing, and playing well.
OK, another issue, your wife says something to the effect that if she decides to learn to play guitar and is passionate about it then it would be ok for her to play. Well there is a major flaw in that idea. What if she never becomes passionate about playing guitar? I enjoy playing some of the Karaoke games from time to time, has that inhibited me from becoming a singer? I doubt it. More likely it's the fact that I'm a mediocre vocalist at best. But I have fun playing anyway, and I still have the sense not to go out to bars or restaurants on karaoke night. Our daughter plays clarinet in school, she started out trying to play the flute, but wasn't able to produce the notes properly. The band teacher was able to find an alternative (the clarinet) and she plays quite well at this point in my highly biased opinion. She's been playing guitar hero for around the same length of time, and sadly has surpassed my own abilities by a fair margin. We've always had to push her to practice, but never beyond what I believe to be normal for her age. Practicing is like washing the dishes, it's not the most exciting thing in the world but it has to be done from time to time, and so far we've managed to keep her going without starting any major world or household wars. Also since she started playing guitar hero she's become more interested in taking up playing real guitar. We just don't have the resources to invest in that venture at this time, but hopefully it's something we'll be able to pursue in the (relatively) near future.
I agree with your wife that most parents should have higher standards, I just think her arguments in this case aren't realistic.
As with anything else, is it possible that in a few isolated and rare instances her scenario will play out as she fears, sure. But I believe in nearly all cases any kid that picks up a guitar after playing guitar hero and quits, would have quit anyway, assuming they would even have made the attempt had it not been for GH/RB/etc.
I feel the same way about 'violent' games, I played street fighter, and mortal kombat, and various other games that pushed the boundries of reality and gore when I was a teenager, did I ever for a second think it would be a good idea to chop off someone's head or blow them away with a double barreled shot gun?
...
Ok, there may have been one time...
really, no, never.
Is it possible that even one of the kids that has committed a violent act since those games came out might not have done it had they never seen violence... maybe
Is it likely? I seriously doubt it.
Sorry got slightly off topic there... as for the lyrics issue, let's look at the facts again... your daughter is 2! I don't know how much she'd be able to play RB at 2, but even if she could and you were going to let her, I'd hope you would be supervising her when she was playing, so you only allow her to play songs you feel are ok.
Anyway, I could go on, I haven't even brought up the internet, it's out there, with lots of good and tons of bad, and sooner or later she's probably going to be using it. But anyway I've rambled enough. I just want to say, that although I disagree on this point, it's great that you're being an active and informed parent (even if I believe you're misinformed on this issue :) Good luck, and keep up the good work, there will be a long time where she wont appreciate it, but eventually she'll understand :)
i just wanted to tell you that my first guitar literally cost $65 and it was shipped to me at my apartment when i was a sophomore in college. there are also used instrument stores with cheap but really great guitars. you might be able to afford the expense for your daughter's sake if you look around a bit. i'm just a sucker for a child's interest in creative outlets, and i'm also a believer in the power of learning music. scientists say it is even linked to mathematical comprehension, and i'm a walking example of that (reading music since childhood, applied mathematics degree in college). it's really cool that your daughter wants to play guitar, i hope she gets the chance to learn!
I went back and read all the posts. Their is something about music. When you play it for very little children they move.
I bet your daughter will play because you do, not because she is told or programed to like one of the guys is trying to say. And their is a big difference in playing music and MAKING music. Their is no art in RB or GH. We all read, but not all of us truly write. Trying to see if your child can create, well, thats worth a little push.
That's interesting!
A few days ago, there was a celebration with live music on the street I live in. A big festival of the whole quarter. The band played hand-made music, a bit in the style of the Doors.
I have a window in direct view of the street, so I just stood there and watched the people, kids and dogs walking by.
Then there came a mom with her children. Once they were in range of the music, the children started moving like a superior force had attached strings to their feet and pulled it in the rhythmn of the drum. They really looked like marionettes, but the expression on their faces was great job.
Hearing music + moving feet = natural reaction, it seems.
What a pity, that they will grow older and "cooler".
After reading this whole thing, my only comment is-- how are you going to react when, without the big bad evil rock band, she still doesn't want to play an instrument?
It seems like you have an interest in forcing it to happen.
I am 46, love my games, computer and console, and have two boys 11 and 9. I think you and your wife are doing the right things. Talking over the issues and debating them and picking the conservative route when their is no agreement. You spell it out in the third paragraph on reality. I had grey market tv back in the day and when that stopped one day we just let it ride. The boys, 5 and 3 at the time, began, after complaining for two days, to find other ways to play, not really pushed by us. Days turned to years. I noticed that when they were with friends they could find things to do when the others would complain. And they hated going to others houses because when they watched their shows it would stop every 5 minutes for the adds. I download all their shows, they come home and say dad everyone is talking about "?" , so I download it and they watch it.
In the meantime we had our games! Over the years we have played all the types, including RB. Now my oldest is starting to show signs of not wanting to participate in the REAL world a little and this has my wife and I talking. I am not talking going GOTH or anything just little things we see and hear. We just might try the old TV solution again on him. My youngest does not really play all that much and would rather go play with friends outside. They are different and these things happen slowly if your paying attention.
A friend of mine with older kids once told me the two most important things. She said kids are like elastic bands " if you pull them really hard in one direction they will snap back in the other when they get their freedom" and that she did not punish them all the time for making mistakes but instead talked with no giving of advice or orders. If we are to have any control over their lives later, as teens , when they could make decisions that could really hurt them, we need to be able to talk and they feel they can come to us for help with no fear of punishment or lecture.
I have used the games and movies we watch to teach them about the REAL world. The language in these we talk about all the time. Your daughter will know all these words soon enough. How and when to use them IS the issue. You are right that any word can be said to mean hate. But we must try to be aware of others feelings.
My little one had nightmares and we traced it to movies he had seen with bigger kids. Thus I began to show him about the fakeness in movies, the special effects. On slow motion and no sound even CGI looks bad. I had them make their own movie to show them how they make someones arm come off, you know props and different shots. all shown real fast, it looks good. He wanted to see "cloverfield". So I gave him a lesson on suspense. You know,why the blair witch movie worked bcause you never really see anything and your mind makes it far worse than the reality. I went to the frame in the movie, "cloverfield", where the monster was standing over the boy and froze it. with no sound playing and a bad CGI monster he was dissapointed that it looked like every other monster he had seen. point for me! They have become quite the critics.
The last thing is about what age to give them this information. sometimes they bring it up like a nightmare and sometime we try to pre-pare them for things. I live in canada also and you know how it is with hockey, well mine wouldn't skate. One of my good friends is a scout and he was telling all of us one day, a bunch of hockey dads and me the outcast, that this push to make them so good so early does nothing to improve their chances. So many in the NHL dont even find the sport until the are over 12.
Anyway, you and your wife are both right. Their is no roadmap and no one knows your own daughter like you two. You Teach, You Watch, You Three learn. And their should be ratings on games and shows just to help out with decisions. You are your own liquor control board!!
John, Cheers
p.s. keep up the great writing, tech and all.
Yeah, compromise. In most marriages it works out in exactly this way. You want to do one thing, your wife wants to do another. Then you "compromise" and do what she wants to do. lol
But here are a couple of real points I'd like to make. I have heard the over-used argument before that playing Guitar Hero or Rock Band discourages kids from playing real instruments. It is ridiculous. Unless your kid only wants to know how to "play" a set library of songs in the exact same way over and over again, then a video game will never be real competition to playing a real instrument. Music creation and interpretation, and the ability to learn how to play ANY song you like (or can think up) are all major reasons to learn how to play a real guitar.
That also kills the dish-washing analogy. The difference in the two dish-washing scenarios was the ease of the task. The end result remained the same: The dishes were clean. But a video game guitar and a real guitar don't reach the same ending. You aren't playing a song with a plastic guitar controller. You are playing a game. Give your daughter some credit. She will understand the difference.
Oh, and one last thing. It is also obvious that this is your first and only child. If you had more children, you would not have the time to indulge in this level of "over parenting". You would just be happy they were willing to sit and play a game together, without trying to kill each other or burn your house down.
I saw the word shield in there. Shielding kids from stuff is the problem with kids today. I'm not saying you should just let them romp around and do whatever they want like lots of people do, but something like this that can actually give them some good, build coordinations and such while giving enjoyment shouldn't be shielded. She'll either like it or she won't. If she already has a liking for music and she hates the game, thats not going to kill the liking for music.Plus, most kids know the differece between game and life. Unless she doesn't get that, then you'll have issues but you will NEVER know unless you let her try things. You can explain to her that it's a game and not like playing a real guitar while still trying to build that musical influence that you say she is showing.
I have read the article and most of the comments and I strongly disagree.
My first thought was: Another perfect™ example of American parental overprotectionism.
You want to protect your child against everything, which means you want to shield if from the whole world, filled with cursing, murdering, child-molesting, internet-raping, predating bad guys, who have only 1 purpose in life: to get your daugther. Yeah... so you turn your house into a nice, toy-filled pink and white decorated prison.
The problem with that kind of attitude is, that you instill FEAR on your child. FEAR of the outside world, FEAR of (completely friendly) strangers, FEAR that there is a terrorist boogeyman behind each and every corner, FEAR of everything that's not pre-labeled "safe to use" by her very parents: you, the almighty dictators over her little life. The sentence: "...it's my house and as long as you live here... (not that you are allowed to leave)..." comes to mind.
Another problem is that you can't protect your children from everything. Heck, sometimes failing or getting hurt is part of the learning process. I guess you want her to learn walking without falling even ONE TIME. Bad news: won't happen.
Besides, pain is one of the quickest and best learning stimuli that exist out there, imagine this:
"Darling, please don't touch the oven, it's hot."
"Please darling, don't touch it, it's still hot."
*touches it out of unsatisfied curiosity* which leads to a small burning, quick pain reflex, big crying, but a lesson learned for life: she will never touch a hot oven again.
Of course you don't give children guns and knifes to play with.
But there is a difference between overprotectionism and safety.
Imho 9/11 has changed America for the worse: fear-mongering seems to be norm.
And if you don’t overprotect your children: „Come here, mommy, that’s the BAD PARENT sticker just for you!“
Yes, and sometimes I actually ask myself how children could grow up in the 50ies or in the 19th century without all that safety measures around them, without GPS chips inplanted into their body to locate them 24/7 and without parental control locks on every toy they might get their hands on... how did they grow up?
I guess this is all because the invention of childhood. In earlier times children were seen as adults. Of course they differed in size. But they had all the responsibilites. If you grew up in a big family with 6 or more children and had the simple-sounding task of "go, look after your brothers and sisters" - you had a freak-lot of responsibility to shoulder.
In the modern age the concept of childhood was invented and with it came the declaration of children as total stupid, unresponsible morons, who have to be spooonfed (and I don't just mean food by that) till they are 18.
I remember a diary entry by Werner Herzog (a German independent film maker) who visited a jungle tribe, far from so-called civilization. There, the people lived in huts and the men used very sharp machetes for work and travel in the jungle. When they were at home, they simply put those tools on the ground. According to them no toddler was ever hurt by one of the machetes.
How come? I asked myself. Aren't children total idiots, who set the house on fire if you leave them alone for 5 minutes?
Guess not. But you have to change the premise, your point of view on children to start with...
You have to treat them like intelligent beings who can and will live up to responsibility if they are really given some.
Second: What I think about products like Rock Band:
You want to strip out the heart and soul oft artist’s work (e.g. lyrics) to make it „safer“ (<-- here, it's the signal word again: safe, everything has to be safe and family friendly). But guess what? "Rock" isn't just a genre. It has a meaning (or meant something, till parents came and considered playing black metal on guitar pro as great, funny parenting). Rock, at least to me, means rebellion against conservatism. What you propagate is some kind of BARBIE’S BEATY QUEEN POP BAND ADVENTURES (heck, even ABBA had songs about drug use (fly like an eagle) and capitalism (money, money, money).
You complain about Rock Band’s usage of original songs with original lyrics...
Those original lyrics are - per definition - not family-friendly or "safe for kids" or whatever bullshit you want them to be. They are, if they aren't made by big media corporations of today, songs of rebellion, songs of drugs, sex and rock’n’n roll, songs about serious and funny things, songs about trying your hardest to check the boundaries oft aestethics... and, you might have guessed it, this includes rebelling against your parents...
I recommend watching PBS Frontline: The way the music died.
Industry has understood and made it a big, big, BIG DOLLAR. Teenage rebellion has become yet another product and parents in their midlife crisis' are even better buyers than little kids as they trying harder to be more youthful than ever before.
But what does the child do if it encounters this? What does it do when it finally realizes that all that pseudo-rebellion is yet another marketing scam? As fake as wrestling? As fake as punk?
Well, there are extremes for that child to go to... like Gangsta Rap or Black Metal. …which are yet the same product from the same music corporation with a differening marketing target: "What, you don't like mainstream Rhianna? Well, here is some Marilyn Manson for you - same label btw, so we made sure that your money safely travels to US, the big music industry – isn’t that great? That’s the very definition of SELLING-OUT. And you got no chance around it.
What shall be left?
No rebellion at all.
Quote:
it's still my job as her parent to not subject her to imagery like "come and drink it up from my fertility" and "drink my juice young love chug-a-lug me."
I like the English language. You have two words which have only one equivalent in German:
playing vs. gaming.
Play is a free-for-all sandbox of fantasy. And children, especially girls don’t play nice.
[quote] Then again, girls' refusal to "play nice" has an equally long history. Victorian girls used the trays from their tea parties to toboggan down stairways; they tortured their dolls and held elaborate mock-funerals for them.[/quote]
BarbieGirls is an Orwellian overprotectionist parent’s dream come true.
All the censorship we need to ensure safety.
I actually like the idea of a Barbie orgy, complete with stripping, petting and loooots of fucking involved. There goes the safety! She just said a dirty word! Oh noooooo! Western culture is doooomed!
you clearly don't have kids. or you're currently doing a real number on them. and by the way, FEAR can also be a useful tool for human survival.
when people treated kids like adults a long time ago it was because of a pathetically short lifespan, and little pre-pubescent girls who married middle aged men then died in childbirth didn't have the luxury of parents sifting through what they should and shouldn't be exposed to due to the need to continue the family name. i'm sure the girls also weren't asked how they felt about all that before it happened, either.
if simple protections for young children are so dangerous explain the misery of the children who have no one watching out for them. orphanage kids, abortion survivors, etc. rarely have an easy time adjusting to life as they grow.
the toddlers that never hurt themselves on the machetes probably couldn't pick them up. have you ever lifted one? they aren't like plastic light-sabers. but i suppose in the same way my child has been around the exposed phone jack her whole life now and hasn't been zapped by it. perhaps i should remove the gate from the stairs and let her take a few tumbles to learn a good lesson. i can't believe how difficult i've been making it, i've been doing it all wrong by caring at all. it's amazing, really, she's all of TWO FREAKING YEARS OLD, why am i still carrying around my "parent" business cards? she's totally ready to fly.
"you clearly don't have kids. or you're currently doing a real number on them."
Why did you have to resort to an ad hominem attack? Shame on you.
In my opinion the key is this issue you have with yourself -- you have shown little to no self-control by the above reply, and you want to have control over someone else's life out of fear that they will turn out to be a copy of the uncontrollable you.
"and by the way, FEAR can also be a useful tool for human survival."
FEAR is never usefull -- it is paralyzing, it diminishes the capacity for rational thinking thus leading to poor (and sometimes fatal) decisions, and it does not stimulate one's mind to be inquiring.
"you turn your house into a nice, toy-filled pink and white decorated prison."
i thought i was talking to you on your level. your whole post was an attack.
without fear man wouldn't have the fight or flight impulse. any psychologist will tell you there's usefulness in adrenaline. the same as hunger, (which a lot of people are down on these days, when in fact they should be down on starvation) sorrow, and anger. an overly inquiring mind is just as likely as a fearful one to cause poor and sometimes fatal decisions, as well as clouding judgment. these bad choices are made based on the person's character, not emotions.
if fear is such a harmful emotion why has evolution (perhaps i'm assuming you are a believer in evolution, it's ok if you aren't) left us with it?
Well. I've read through the responses and I don't understand why I have to have a baby in order to grant permission to comment on education of children. This is basic criticism. E.g.: You don't have to be a bestselling writer to get if someone has produced a book full of drivel. Otherwise there would be only a handfull of people on the world to criticize books...
Same goes with any work of art or skill. You don't have to be a master at it to point out flaws...
I think a world, where children are controlled by their parents up to the point that they get chips inplanted which give away their position, parent-locks on their electronic devices, cameras and microphones in their sleeping rooms and 24/7 surveillance is exactly mirroring the behaviour exercized by Ingsoz over the citizens in 1984, except all parents are in the lucky, all-powerful position of Big Brother/Sister.
I can understand that it feels nice to be so overwhelmingly powerful and to have it in one's might to completely shape a human's life. But I wouldn't be so sure if all of these precautions help your child (at all).
The children produced in Brave New World are happy. Because raising them has been professionalized by people who know best. Every time. It's also a great example of genetical manipulation. In the end, your product isn't really human anymore, but a happy sheep, willing to obey.
Do you know the Struwwelpeter? It's a children's "comic" book, teaching children how to behave and what they must not do in order to evade the gruesome punishment/death of the "evil child", which are closely portrayed in this book. It was written in the early 19th century. Today, we can only look at it as grotesque and rather violent, but it was an instant bestseller and even today it can be found in many families' homes.
Who tells you, that what you do is the right thing?
I've read a study which found, that if you let your child live in a clinically clean house, it has a much-much higher chance of catching allergies.
To come back on topic: In my mind, overshielding or overprotecting is never good (hence the name). Children are "built" to resist lots of damage. They are meant to fall sometimes and their bodies are best suited to withstand those learning side-effects. Just look at their bones, evolution and nature (or God, if you will) just prove to employ the best engineers and architects.
And once again, I ask you this: How did children grow up in the 80ies (without all those safety mumbo-jumbo)? That's just ~25years ago, not really a long time... I think there is a big industry, just waiting for the parent's dollar to sell them everything to make their homes children-proof...
But how do you sell protection? By creating a need!
It's like the Mafia, just ask them how to sell protection.. they know best. To me, this family-friendly-protect-your-child-now-it-might-be-in-danger-industry is nothing but the Mafia. They create fear through alerting the public by the means of massive media spam.
_______
Instead of exercising ad hominem attacks we could think of the reason why there is such a big need for security nowadays. I say it is man-made and serves industry's purposes. One example of human-generated mass-hysteria (there you have your fear; and you know what fear does? It turns the mass into one big flock of sheep that can be driven anywhere the wolves want):
"You don't need to be able to pick one up to hurt yourself on it."
honestly, yes you kind of do. i've been around them, my brother and i used to slice through the forests behind our mountain home with machetes as kids. note, "kids", not toddlers. my parents made sure we knew how to handle them before setting us free with them.
"The electricity in the phone jack is too weak to hurt anyone."
correct. that's why i used the term "zapped" instead of "killed." you've been helpful, yet again.
Like movies, books, and other media outlets I am prepared to argue that video games can introduce an interest in becoming something as opposed to satisfying that interest.
Video games can introduce into a child's life the knowledge of the existence of a career/activity that perhaps they did know was an option for them, and inspire them to actually engage in it.
Yes, at this time your child is a bit young to be looking at career paths, hehe, but as with everything else, SOME video games do have an arguably valid place in education.
But at the end of the day, it's all personal choice what you consider appropriate.
Imagine you open a book. Inside there are large, colourful illustrations with only a few simple words to read on each page. The entire story requires only a few minutes of your time, and within that short period you get to see amazing things, maybe get a little big scared (in a good, exciting way), but in the end everybody lives happily ever after. And when you're finished, mummy and daddy smother you with hugs and kisses and tell you how clever you are. Surely, nobody would ever want to sit down for hours with some brick-thick slab of unbroken text, not after being exposed to these dumbed-down feel-good stories at such a young, impressionable age.
Clearly this is the most abject nonsense. We don't sit our toddlers down with Faulkner, and nor do we keep them illiterate to preserve the character-building challenge of struggling through it later in life.
My niece was introduced to the guitar through Guitar Hero. She now owns a real instrument, takes lessons, and practices on her own initiative, having been switched on to something she loves. She is if anything more likely to persevere now that she has a taste of what she's persevering for.
As for the game being easy - methinks you've never tried the tougher tracks on 'expert'. I defy anyone to claim that Chris Chike is doing something unremarkable. There's challenge aplenty - the only difference is that when you're starting out you are not forced to plink-plonk through turgid, off-putting beginner riffs; you get to play something worth listening to. And contrary to your wife's concerns, this does not result in children eschewing the harder levels of play in favour of endless easy-mode hits of simulated applause. Why? The same reason I don't read See Spot Run for pleasure anymore.
The way I see it, there are really two separate issues here regarding her wanting to learn a "real" instrument instead of the "watered down" version. There's the genuine love of music, something clearly intrinsically valuable. And then there's the aspect of overcoming that initial obstacle, also a valuable lesson to learn that transcends the music itself. I think music games can help on both counts.
The challenge and frustration has basically already been covered - although the challenge is learning the fake instrument rather than the real one, the same core lesson doesnt change - you can do anything anyone else can, practice makes perfect - keep at it, and you'll get it right. IMO learning that early was probably the single most valuable thing I've ever kept in my mind throughout my entire life.
Then there's the love of music. That also needs to be learned, but I dont believe that there is any need for it to be intrinsically difficult when there are so many aides to make it an easy and enjoyable process. Its the appreciation itself thats valuable. The best students of any subject are those that enjoy what theyre learning, and it would be a shame to hinder that enjoyment by an insistence on making it as difficult as possible.
Listening to baby einstein tapes won't make a child a genius - I didnt learn to read by having my parents read to me, I learned to read by READING. Your child is not going to learn much about music by listening to you guys play or by strumming open strings and listening to the discordance - otherwise we'd all be rock gods from all the music we've listened to on the radio our entire lives. She *needs* to participate in the process to learn *anything*, no matter how basic a level, and I honestly cant think of any better age appropriate way for a very young child to do so than these games.
Theres no question that rock band is watered down, but thats exactly why you should want it! The context here is extremely important. Realize that we're dealing with not only a child, but a VERY young child. I question even the ability of a 2-year old to take on rock band, but playing a guitar or the drums at her age is absolutely beyond her physical ability. RB is essentially fisher-price music, which is exactly why we enjoy it - it allows us to participate in something we normally couldnt. Unless we know an instrument, we're all as clueless as your 2-year old when it comes to these things, so naturally we start at the bottom, where it's most enjoyable. Keep in mind that its only instant gratification to us adults - easy mode will be an uphill battle for a young child in RB, but at least they can physically take it on. Pondering how much closer to hendrix she would be if she spent more of her time playing a real guitar is a question to ask of a 12 year old, not a 2 year old - I'd be impressed if she could actually lift a guitar up at 2.
I'm far from a child psychologist, but my first degree was a bachelors in psychology, dealing primarily with cognition, memory and learning, with a side dose of child psych, so I feel like I can speak with a little bit of authority on the subject. Young children may appear stupid and clueless, but the truth is so far from that in reality. It may seem silly when a child throws things around and giggles, but what theyre actually doing is learning how the physics of the world work. Learning to walk is an incredibly difficult process not because theyre stupid, but because it involves the coordination of hundreds of muscles, and it takes a long time to get that straight. Most everyone is still a little in awe when they see a young child pick up language so incredibly fast, but thats hardly taxing - thats what theyre built to do. There is a certain trigger in the brain that kicks into overdrive around 2-4, where their learning ability is almost superhuman. They could easily learn two or more languages at the same time and hardly be confused by the time theyre fluent in speech, and theyll be bilingual for life.
Knowing how to read before I could remember was incredibly enabling for me academically at a young age. If your child were to understand the basics of music before she could remember, that would forever be a part of her, but she'll NEVER learn that by just listening - she has to DO. So you say you want your child to be the next hendrix - why not give her a step up with the tools available to her, and nudge her in the right direction when real instruments become age appropriate? Beyond the achievement factor, the prior knowledge of basic music theory will undoubtedly be invaluable to the learning process, as its one less simultaneous hurdle to overcome. Even if I didnt know what the bigger words meant, being able to pronounce them was one less thing to deal with when I had to actually learn their meanings.
To get realy analogous - as it's said, you have to learn to walk before you can run. You hope for her to be a world class sprinter. Do you really think that she'll benefit in the long run if you deprived her of a baby walker, because you wanted her to learn to walk the hard way?
You know, I've always sensed a little bit of resentment on the part of musicians when it comes to these games. Its almost not fair in some ways, that you had to put all this hard work in just to play a scale half decently, and now kids and adult douchebags come along and get to have all the fun for free without putting in the work. Realize that aside from a few really delusional douchebags, we're still all impressed by those who can play real instruments. We only get a small taste of that more fufilling enjoyment real musicians have, and we all know it. For many, thats enough - and I see nothing wrong with that. For a LOT of others, thats the spark that gets us to take the next step, but few us of would ever take it to the point where we'd start our own band.
But you already have one at home.
Teenagers want to do the opposite of their parents, young kids IDOLIZE their parents. Your fears of your daughter being satiated by RB and never wanting to touch a real instrument are completely unwarranted IMO - I'd bet a fairly large sum of money that the outcome would be the total polar opposite, and it would be that *absolute best thing* that you could do if your primary concern is fostering a love of music. Keep in mind that these games are difficulty appropriate for her very young age - unlike us adults or even a 6-year old, she will NOT get *instant* gratification from them, and if so, not for long if you encourage her to raise the difficulty. Theres no way in the world a child that understands the basics of music because she was able to learn that early, sees their parents playing music, and is surrounded by instruments is not going to pick up an instrument and not only enjoy it, but excel at it.
Although the OP has primarily dealt with RB, and even though I still that that until she's at least 3-4 she could barely play any of these games at all, I think that the upcoming guitar hero: world tour is even better as a learning tool. In RB, youre a semi-active participant in the song, but the music creator in GHWT goes one step further - using very basic toy instruments, genuine music can be created. Hardly the same as a real guitar, but here is where the fundamentals of music theory such as scales can make their way into her mind before she even understands the concept of learning and teaching. Picture this: Derek's on the *real* drums, Laura's on *real* rhythm guitar, and your little girl is hooked up to the TV, jamming along with you guys on a major C-scale before she even knows how to complete a full sentence...and it wont take long for her to figure the difference between harmony and disharmony, and that can hardly be a bad thing for her musical development in the long run.
The last thing I want to emphasize is that you have total control over the message with a young child. You decide whether she listens to avenged sevenfold or the doors. If one of you is singing, you get to decide whether that f-bomb gets dropped or not - it's not like she can read the lyrics. While there still remains something noble about learning the things hard way, I hardly think that principal is worth giving up on such an opportunity to foster enjoyment of music at a young age. The mere fact that she's a human being will ensure that she'll have have plenty of seemingly insurmountable challenges in her life - music doesnt necessarily need to be one of them. I'm sure she'll be fine either way, but when I have my own little ones, I look forward to my kid kicking my ass in rock band, and who knows whatll happen from there?
Sorry for the overly long essay. I would have posted earlier but I was too busy doing "hands-on research" for it with my GF. :P I'm the gamer, so I dig the challenge of the expert guitar - she's the singer, I guess those singing lessons she got while she was a little toddler paid off. :)
i started reading but had to skim -- just wanted to make one point while i have a second.
we never let our child use a baby walker --
they are banned in canada and docs all over recommend against them because they delay development of important motor skills. the child learns to walk /in a walker/ rather than learning to walk (Which isn't the same thing and learning the one can be detrimental to the other) -- balance and muscle development doesn't happen at a normal pace when a child uses a walker ... will it end the world? no. but will it stunt their development? yes.
that ends up being, in fact, an apt analogy for why we would want to delay exposure to rock band. because it might negatively impact her development. in the rock band case, we are unsure of how this may or may not happen, but the possibility seems plausible. and, again, since the cost/benefit analysis really doesn't come out in favor of taking the chance (rock band is just a game after all), i see no problem in not bringing it into our home.
i'll read the rest later when i've got time and respond.
well, baby walkers are banned not because they stunt mental growth, but because they make it much easier for a child to *physically* injure themselves. It's a pretty bad analogy in retrospect because unlike music, walking is not an optional skill - the child must learn it out of necessity, a love for walking is hardly a factor. I've never heard of a child that just plain failed to grasp the skill of walking, yet I've seen droves that never got music (myself included).
You seem to focusing on it's potemtial detriments for the childs physical abilty to handle an instrument. - that's certainly up to some debate, but what I'm trying to get across is more about mental and cognitive ability. I hardly think rb can do much for her physically, but I'd find it a bit of a stretch to buy that it would stunt her development in any significant way.
have you ever played warcraft? starcraft? any RTS?
i ask because there are some very fundamental similarities with raising a child.
in RTS games there is a tech tree that must be followed. you need to attain certain buildings or units before you can attain others. in child development, the child must attain certain skills that allow them to learn others.
walkers actually do stunt development and delay walking for children. this is a fact. without the skill of walking, they cannot learn other skills. at a young age, the growth and development of the brain is huge, and delays in learning certain skills (from the optimal potential that child has) could certainly negatively impact things.
you just can't win if you don't build things as fast as possible and in a certain order in an RTS. and i want our child to have the best chance she can at life, so we try and make sure she learns new skills as early as she is able.
yes, all children will learn to walk eventually. but if learning to walk later means that she doesn't learn another skill before she's done with this early developmental phase, then that effects the rest of her life.
look at languages -- these early years are the best for children to learn multiple languages (and we're dropping the ball on that cause it's hard and we are not multilingual). but if a child is exposed to another language when they are young, they will learn it much faster than when they are older. if the person needs to learn a language later in life, it often takes months to even get started and years to master.
we just want to make sure that we give her all the tools we can that she might need to succeed at whatever she puts her energy towards later in life.
I appreciate Anandtech trying to broaden it's scope, as a long-time reader I'd prefer the site not group personal blog entries under the "More Reviews" section.
No offense to Derek or the other staff, but when four of the last ten items under "More Reviews" are personal blog entries, it starts to muddy the waters between your excellent reviews and personal opinions.
thanks for the input ... i wanted to see how some of these topics struck people though. the goal isn't to take anything away, just to build up. and for the most part i've gotten good responses to these blog posts.
so i may post more frequently, but i also may skip moving some of them to the front page (which we have the ability to do).
I want my kid to be able to read complex novels like War & Peace. Therefore, I should never let them read Nancy Drew books because they'll get instant gratification from a dumbed-down reading experience and won't have any motivation to read harder stuff.
... sounds silly, doesn't it?
Here's a better solution: I'm assuming your family can afford both video games and musical instruments. So, why not provide both things to your children, and then regulate their usage? It's not like you must let your kid loose in the living room and watch from around the corner hoping they'll sit down at the piano instead of the PS3. You can encourage them either way. You could even link the two - for each few songs in rock band, make them learn to play one of those songs on a real instrument. Then you get the best of both worlds - you experience the music in the game, you get the rhythm down, you learn the lyrics, and then you learn to transfer what you heard in the game to your own musical instrument. You've basically replaced the radio with the video game, but you're being introduced to music just the same.
Side note: If you don't want rock band because you worry that you'd be tempted to let your kid play it all day instead of learn an instrument, then I understand (it's like choosing not to keep junk food in the house). But don't approach this as if you have no influence on what your kid spends time on.
I don't know what is best for anyone else; but my 12 year old daughter has taken music in grades 6, 7 and now 8. She does percussion and has had her own set of drums since grade 6. She liked playing the drums but never took a big interest in them outside of practicing for her music class. Then, I got her Rock Band and now Rock Band 2. Once she got into Rock Band she started taking more interest in her real drums. Now she plays them a whole lot more. She plays the songs on Rock Band (most of them in expert mode) and then on her real drums with just the music. She also plays the Rock Band guitar and sings (mostly hard mode and some expert). She has friends over to play the game all the time. As well, my 8 year old son and I join her in the game (on easy mode) and have a lot of family fun. For me, Rock Band has just increased the interest in music for the whole family. We even went to look at real guitars now. Best of all, if you want to bond with you’re kids, grab Rock Band and play their music with them.
Btw, I’ve been playing video games since the 70’s (like pong) and games like this (and many on our WII) get the kids up and moving instead of just pressing a few buttons. That said; get them outdoors as well.
i do think that your daughters interest in drums initially may have had an impact on how she used rock band as a tool ... also drums are much closer to the real thing than the guitar.
but i do appreciate you sharing. I can't wait til my kids get old enough that we can play video games as a family :-)
I have always had issues with the demonic images in these games. I don't understand why all that satanist stuff is necessary in these games. How does it enhance the game play? It almost seems like an effort to work on the subconscious minds of the kids playing.
a KISS is a KISS
But you are right... why not dump the child in a tank of feel-good, so by the time she is allowed to go out for the 1st time in her life (= 20 years+), she falls flat over.
also, i if i wanted her to be dumped in a tank of feel good, i think we'd lean more toward letting her do the things that get her easy rewards without a second thought ... right?
I understand your wife's intentions and thought process, but she's wrong and right. She's right in that what she proposes would happen, *could* happen. She's wrong to think that's the likely outcome. Video games are virtual and never as fun or rewarding as the real thing.
My brother in law (very young "whoops" from my in-laws) started playing guitar hero very young, I think 6. He played it a lot. When he first started, he was terrible. I couldn't stand to watch or listen to him play. He had no hand eye-coordination. Now, he's almost as good as me. However, MOST IMPORTANTLY, he now plays the real guitar BECAUSE OF THE GAME. He takes lessons and rocks out to AC/DC and the like (he's in the 3rd grade this year). The game peaked his interest and he had a support system around him to act upon it. Be that support system, don't be the filter. Kids are much smarter than you give them credit for, you just have to explain things to them..
I race cars, both in autocross and at the track. If you talk to people at the track, there are quite a few who are there because their interest was found in a video game.
i essentially agree with this, and i think laura does too ...
but at what point do children become capable of understanding "you shouldn't for these reasons"? ... honestly, when we correct her, we always tell her why even knowing she doesn't understand so that she won't miss it when she finally does make the connection. but it is harder to expose her to something and say "you should look at it this way" when she has no ability to conceptualize like that. yet.
certainly when she's a couple years older the conversation will be very different. if she learns what rock band is and expresses an interest in playing it, i don't think either of us would have a problem with her playing it (but of course we would explain to her the limitations of the game and the advantages of real instruments while we both played along side her).
That is quite a sweeping statement. Do you really claim that it is impossible for someone else to know better what is right for a child? As long as you do not define "right" as whatever the parents thinks is best, however damaging it may be for the child.
i think what he meant was that parents are in a better position to know what is best for their own children because of the amount of time they spend with them and love they have for them (and i think also because they know their family history and the tendencies of their family members).
yeah, some parents are stupid. also some parents make bad decisions for their kids.
but no one else has as much potential to understand and make the right decisions as the parents. i think when you become a parent you learn this pretty quickly. parents need to be the ones who chose what is right for their children (within the bounds of the law anyway).
I will admit that this is my first post here but I felt a bit compelled to comment.
Rock Band 2 is a game. It's made to be fun and to allow people with little-to-no musical skill have fun being part of the musical process. With that in mind, it's also a way to get people who are ambivalent about music to become more interested in the process of making music and to appreciate it more.
Harmonix is a company comprised of almost entirely of professional and amateur musicians - whether it be rock, hip-hop, classical, or anything in between. And the things that compelled them as kids to take up an instrument are part of the game. The idea of creating something for people to enjoy or to express yourself, like the people who provided music for the game, is readily apparent and translates very easily.
I guess I can color this even more by saying that I work at Harmonix (though this is not at ALL an official response, this one guy's opinion) but I've seen so many people who have worked on or played our games take up an instrument where they thought they would never have the ability to do so before.
The argument in regards to doing dishes is a flawed one in that no GAME is going to make you grind through hours of "boring" practice in order to have fun (unless it's an MMO). But to think that this "instant gratification" will lessen your daughter's potential love for learning an instrument is doing her a disservice.
Would you ban any and all sports game for fear that she will never decide to be active, knowing that all that hardwork and exercise is ahead of her when she could just pop in Madden 2015 and be Tom Brady? Or that playing The Sims is off-limits because who would want to go through the rigmarole of actually living?
At two years old, I don't think Rock Band would be quite the game for her anyway (physical limitations of having small hands and being smaller than the instruments). But with a "no fail" mode, she can engage in the game and learn that "playing" music is fun. Or perhaps watch her parents have a blast playing in a "band," forming associations that music can be more than a passive listening experience.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned... Playing the drums of Rock Band on expert, is extremely simlar to playing a real set of drums. Personally, I don't have the experience to back that up, but I've heard this more than once and heard quite a few anecdotal stories of drummers sitting down with the game and starting on expert. The only issue is that the timing is not the same. When I played the first time it was with my cousin, who fits the story exactly. He's a drummer and was able to start on the hardest level.
Now, beleiving that a 2 year old may not differentiate between a real guitar and guitar controller seems possible, but I'd like a psyhcologist to chime in before I make that huge of a leap. I've played on the computer since Zork on a monochrome screen and every console ever made including coleco and intellivision as well as the Turbografix 16, 3do, and Neo Geo, and atari Jaguar. I was born in 77, and have had quite a few more experiences with gaming than anyone younger ever possibly could. The only difference between my experiences then, and your children's now is the look of the controller and the games. I played sports all through high school and junior high for the school and backyard sports as well so my love of actually playing hockey, tennis, football, and soccer wasn't diminished by the availablility of fake versions.
You are assuming that a 2 year old can't tell the difference between a guitar shaped controller with buttons and a strum bar and a real guitar with strings and a resonance chamber. There are many reason to limit video games, but the reason you've described just seems as far fetched as not swimming after eating to avoid cramps. I seriously have to call shannanigans on you for that =) You have a lot of other really good ideas about limiting the exposure to other things, and I agree with you. But I would be hard pressed to believe that even a 2 year old can't tell the difference between a game on a 2d television and holding a guitar and feeling the strings and the weight of the guitar as well as hearing the sound it makes when you strum the strings. If a young child pets a bunny and learns that it's a bunny, then pets a cat they will call it a bunny. Right up until you show them the difference between a kitty and bunny where the fur puts it in one category, then there are sub categories. Why would a guitar shaped controller be any diffeerent, (even though there are no similarities between the game and the real guitar other than general shape)?
yeah, the drums on expert are really similar to playing an electric drum kit. there are things you don't learn like how to use the bounce of the drum head or the kick pedal to assist you, and "reading" rock band music is nothing like reading real drum music (or standard musical notation for any instrument for that matter).
i agree with fattysharp, too, we should be careful of our reasons for censoring our children.
as for not knowing the difference between guitars and rock band 2 controllers, you are right that there's no concern she'll confuse an acoustic. but there are some electric guitars out there that don't look so different... (it is kind of moot, though, because people learn guitar most often by starting with acoustic).
Censorship based on age is a good thing in my opinion. If you feel the content is inappropiate for a 2 year, then not exposing them to it is a good thing.
Censorship based on limiting influencing factors to push, force or "encourage" anyone at any age down a particular path because that is what you want them to do is not so much a good thing. It will often result in the opposit result that you are aiming for.
As a parent you need to ask yourself "Am I making this choice based on what I want, or based on what is best for the child?" Parents too often place their own desire on children. Both of your answers are based on what you want, not want your daughter wants.
While it will not matter much this time, it will matter later. Just remember to ask yourself if it is for your sake or your childs, and things should turn out fine.
After re-reading this I feel I am speaking from the holier then you pedestil. That is not my intent, i just feel that the hardest choices we make, are when they are for other people.
I think Laura missed the point exactly when it comes to this:
"I'm not afraid my daughter wouldn't want to pick up a guitar once she sees how fun it is to play Rock Band 2. But I would be amazed if she persevered with the real thing in the same way after experiencing the misleading rewards of the video game."
That is all contingent on her playing eternally in "easy mode". I'm sure many have seen it before, but youtube is absolutely filled with videos of little kids absolutely destroying the hardest songs on expert mode - why are these videos so popular? Not because we are in awe of their ability to play a video game, but because we are in awe that children who are barely past speech are able to accomplish feats that most of us consider impossible and have given up even trying on a long time ago. The comments on these posts are littered with amazement by people of all ages.
The important lesson these children learn is not that video games are more fun than real life, but that they can do ANYTHING with practice and perseverance, including things that adults simply can't or won't do because its "too hard".
They say genius is "1% inspiration, 99% perspiration". If your child was to pick up a real guitar, the real key to success would be a belief that no matter how difficult this may seem now, the more I practice, the better I will get. No one will be able to tell them they don't have the "talent", because they already know the answer to the question "Can I do this?"
just to point something else out that people need to consider ...
mastering real instruments in infinitely harder than mastering rock band on expert.
playing rock band is, at once, easier to play and harder to master if you have already learned an instrument (because you'll always want to play the song the way you learned it).
kids who think, because they tried to a certain extent and mastered rock band on expert, that they just as easily master guitar will be very discouraged. it will take a lot more effort and a lot more dedication with a lot less fun and a lot less reward -- until they cross certain thresholds of drudge work that is.
I agree with you that it can be technically difficult - and even though I never had the time to follow through with mastering the real guitar, I stopped not out of discouragement that it was difficult, but out of a lack of time. The guitar is an incredibly frustrating instrument to learn in the first place. But there was never a time when I thought to myself "I can't do this", and mastering difficult video games (long before RB/GH existed) was one of the things that helped me understand that. I believe that's where the parents can step in, to bridge that gap - especially in a household full of musicians, playing a real instrument along with you guys will I'm sure be an incredibly rewarding AND encouraging experience.
He fails, and what does he do? Blame the guitar, smash it, and run away.
I guarantee you that first kid isnt going to blame something else - he's going to keep at it until he gets it right, and then mock the rest of us - not because he has some innate skill, but because he has the perseverance that we dont.
it is a wonderful thing to see a small child ripping through something an adult had no patience for, and that is definitely an image that happens frequently because of the human brain's sharper learning capabilities at the early ages. but imagine how awesome it would be if that kid spent all that time working at a real guitar instead. he'd be on his way to jimi hendrix levels of prodigy fame.
my daughter is already showing interest in not only hearing guitar but also playing it. the very first time she sat with one in her lap (full sized, no less) she wrapped her left hand around the neck and strummed at the strings with her right. at 1.5 years old, i considered that pretty impressive. her dad is a drummer and her mom is a pianist, but both of us have been in bands playing our own and other instruments, including guitar and bass. we put a lot of value in those experiences, too.
i'm a victim of what i hope to shield my child from in many ways. most of my creative outlets are fulfilled by video games, not supplemented. i have paintings i haven't gotten back to in years, but if i haven't completed a game of black and white i have trouble sleeping at night. derek's different, he enjoys the qualities of the game and even celebrates the levels of skill required to create it. but i think people can have a predisposition to one or the other. my whole family, (brothers sisters and parents), has issues with dependencies - addictive personalities, so to speak - and that can manifest in any form, including video game addictions. it's possible i'll pass that trait to my kids, so i'd like to give them a fighting chance.
don't get me wrong, i don't intend to censor what my kids can play as far as video games go for their whole lives, but i'd like to let them explore the more difficult, real, rewarding things before turning them into fun games to pass time. perhaps i project too much... but i continue to lean on the side of caution, as more of the mistakes made by parents around me seem to have been caused by complacency. (yes, i know overprotection is just as bad, but there IS a happy middle ground and i'm searching for it).
True, there may be a certain element of the child being able to learn certain things quicker, but I don't believe that is what the core of his success is. The point I'm trying to make transcends the guitar and video games.
From my own experiences, a story that had to be told back to me because I was too young to remember: When I was 4 years old, I saw my dad's old chess pieces, and he showed me how to play. He obviously took it easy on me, but I sensed even then that he was letting me win, and I told him to play fair. He naturally whooped my ass, over and over. I practically went away crying, upset that I'd never be able to beat him.
The next day, I found a brand new copy of the game "battle chess" waiting for me. Sure, I was disappointed it wasnt mega man, but he just told me he found it on the street and thought I would like it. I played that game to death - for a few weeks, he wasnt "in the mood" to play "real" chess, but he must have been watching me play out of the corner of his eye, and when he was eventually "in the mood", he told me that was one of the toughest games of chess he ever played - he won, but that winning streak didnt last more than a day or two. It was naturally a great bonding experience as well.
Apparently, a bit after that, I saw my dad reading, and I told him that I bet I could "beat him at reading". He taught me the alphabet, left a few books lying around, and you can imagine the rest. To this day, I dont have any recollection of ever learning how to read - it was just something I knew how to do by the time I could remember. I do remember the way at 6 that my 1st grade teacher scolded me for not doing my assignment because I read "run dog run" in 2 seconds flat. I read the entire 1st grade library in about 30 minutes to her, one book after another, and back then I didnt understand wtf the big deal was. They told my parents I was a genius apparently.
Every time I struggled in a class, job, or with anything else, and I talked to him about it, he'd bring up battle chess and reading, reminding me that if I could be as good as things as adults while still a child by just doing things, that naturally I could do anything. I've always kept those experiences in the back of my mind, and I know it's enabled me to accomplish things that I otherwise would have given up on.
Obviously music is something very important to your family, but I believe that you could use the game to enable the experience rather than water it down. I can certainly understand the trepidation with giving a child rock band, with the fear it would make it seem so easy. But you have the power to ensure that what the child accomplishes in the game is translated to the real world, to the real guitar. A 2 year old *can* play RB, but can hardly handle a real guitar for a few more years. She can learn very basic skills such as rhythm as timing, and more importantly, you can all play *together as a family*. Let her get better than you at the game, and absolutely do not forget to raise the difficulty of the game as it becomes too easy. Make sure she realizes the reason she's better is not because its "just a game", but because she practiced. The experience can either be one of achievement over adversity (while having fun together, no less), rather than taking the easy way out.
I'm sure with that experience of accomplishment, she'd not only be very eager to play the real guitar, but would have a leg up not only with basic skills, but with the knowledge that she can do it with practice. She's lucky to have people around that can help her learn a real instrument very effectively. You also have the rather unique situation that you're all musicians, so not only can you play the game together, but you can play real music together, when she's ready.
I dont know how, who or what inspired the two of you to pick up instruments, but I dont think it'd be crazy to assume the encouragement of your parents had something to do with it. Especially at 2, the game is what you allow it to be, and you have the ability to make it a positive rather than negative experience.
i think you make a very good point. it's possible she would master the game better than her parents and be so impressed with how it feels that seeing her parents pick up real instruments will give her a desire to master them better than us as well. the drive to succeed is often made sharper by knowing how it feels to succeed already. this is one of the first points that's giving me pause about my opinion. i appreciate your comment!
you know, now that I've had some more time to think about it, I feel there's quite a bit more I can add to the discussion, but suffice it to say that articulating it all would beore than a little difficult on my iPhone at work. I think your fears of instant gratification are certainly justified, but you'd be missin out on an incredible opportunity if you let that fear (which you can do something about) prevent you from exploiting the many positives that you may be overlookk g which can come from this game in the context of your daughter and family. If you can deal with any more of my rambling, I'll post back later tonight. :)
If Laura has absolutely no interest in joining the navy, then her preference to play counterstrike is obvious, but the analogy is useless. The analogy only makes sense if Laura has a serious desire to join the navy, but hasn't because counterstrike provides enough of the experience and gratification that sparked her interest in the first place.
That counterstrike could provide enough of the experience and gratification of actually being in the navy is something I find very hard to believe. I would rather doubt she ever really wanted to be in the navy anyway (or learn how to play a guitar). However, Laura seems like a smart person so I'd have to take her word for it. Although I was of Derek's opinion before reading this article, I'd have to accept Laura's point of view now, although I would ask her to reconsider the validity of the examples she provides.
As an example, I don't think the dish washing analogy applies at all. Dish washing is too much of a mundane, daily chore that anyone would feel much gratification from having acquired the skill. Everyone would prefer the "magic crud-busting liquid" and nothing would be lost because of it. Or have you ever heard of someone refusing to use the dishwasher because they want to hone their manual dish washing skills?
laura complains because i waste too many paper towels and take way too long. she makes me use the dishwasher ...
actually, i think her point with that analogy is apt considering the tediousness of really learning to play. learning music and musical instruments is hard. and it takes a long time and lots of practice.
sure, there is no magical moment when people will start to crowd around and watch you wash dishes and you probably won't enjoy the clean utensils as much as you will enjoy the moment when you can actually play a song all the way through without screwing up for the first time. but many people who just dream of the gratification of having learned an instrument will give up on the learning because it's not really worth it.
there's got to be something more there -- some love for the music itself or for the instrument ... or even a parent requiring a kid to keep going to lessons every week whether they want to or not. and 9 times out of 10 the kid thanks the parent for it later, but i don't think laura and i are going to want to go that route.
the point is -- how will she get over the hurdle of learning a real instrument if she decides that playing the game is easier than learning, more fun than learning, more satisfying than learning, etc ... it's not about the playing of the real instrument -- that easily has value over rock band ... its about motivation for learning and a desire not to make it harder on her to find that.
That is the biggest mistake you guys are making. That plastic guitar-shaped controller is not a substitute for a real guitar. It is a unique way to interact with a rhythm-based video game. Your daughter will be smart enough to know the difference when the time comes.
My honest guess would be that your wife is more annoyed by the idea of plastic "instruments" laying all over your living room, and the "good for our daughter" argument gets her to her goal faster and easier. ;)
I'm a guitarist. People (adults, mind you) challenge me all the time to play this game, because it somehow validates their illusions to win from a real musician, as if they too could get up on a stage and entertain an audience without a zillion hours of practice.
People really like the ambiguity. While no sane person confuses this game or its controller with the real thing, I do think – after seeing how important people think it is to win from me – that there is some substitution going on, and that a lot of children might not understand the amount hard work and dedication required nor learn to persist the way that is needed to really master an instrument or any art or sport.
It would all depend on what other activities children do in their life, ofcourse. If you're a shitty parent and all that your kids do is watching TV and playing computer games, they will miss some skills and probably never really find out other activities to do or learn to invest real time and effort into something.
But this game is popular exactly because people confuse it with the real thing, if not the controller itself, perhaps the ability to learn to play a guitar solo in a day or so in front of cheering crowds... Learning to play an instrument is also learning to persist and to know that for many years you won't be playing anything worth cheering to. That, in my eyes, is the danger of this sort of simulation. Children need to learn to persist at art, music, sports of whatever, and not go to school the next day and announce that they "cleared level 7 in two hours".
While their daughter will understand the difference between a controller and a real guitar, she might not learn that really developing a skill takes a lot more than a few hours, and be conditioned to always seek instant gratification. And that generally breeds loosers…
(Not because of one game, obviously, but in the bigger picture)
I agree with your wife, with basically the same line of reasoning. Rock Band vs. guitar playing is not the same as Grand Turismo vs. driving.
With racing games you can be an expert driver on the console, but it's still almost instantly exhilarating learning how to actually drive.
With instrument games, kids who are excellent at them are doused with a cold bucket of reality the first time they play a real guitar. Currently, the mecahanics of the game are simply nothing like the real thing. I've seen this to a degree with my own kids who have real guitars as well as Guitar Hero laying around the house. They still show interest in playing "Daddy's Guitar" but are extremely intimidated by it - to a degree I don't recall me or my friends ever being.
Also - I definitely disagree with you on the language issue. My kids listen to music with bad words, but we've had conversations about the difference in listening to them and using them on their own, and I've never had a problem with them using bad language. Personally, I think it's a matter of respect. Respect for those around you, and respect for our language to use it appropriately. Instead of enriching their vocabulary with curse words, enrich them with proper alternative words. They'll still curse when they grow up, but at least they'll have a proper set of tools at their disposal to use if they need them.
from someone who has played in a band, I can tell you this laura. Encourage your daughters musical talents however you can. This video game is NOT going to negatively effect them, and you truly are sheltered if you think that is the case. I mean if you even know what counterstrike is, then you have enough of a mind to be able to know a thing or two about games. But really, thats like saying that a little child playing a 7 note keyboard, will cause the key to be a brain dead minion... its just not connected with reality.
It will teach rythem. Timing. Finger placing. And dont forget, if you fail, just like in high school, you will get booed off the stage. Take the good with the bad here and realize IT IS A VIDEO GAME.
laura and i have both played in multiple bands. and we'll certainly encourage her in music, but the first goal is to continue to put musical instruments (real ones) in her life. she already loves to bang on the piano and hit the drums (she is even careful to hold the sticks at the right end) and pluck the strings on the guitar.
rhythm and timing sure. but she can also get that from sitting on daddy's lap while he plays the drums or by copying patterns i play on the djembe or watching mommy play piano and then trying to hit keys with her.
the issue is more along the lines of: will she see the rock band instruments as she already sees these instruments? certainly they are not the same thing, but if she sees them as the same thing, would that be a bad thing? do we wait to expose her to these things until she can comprehend the difference?
it isn't that i want her to be interested in music because i am interested in her being interested in music ...
i am interested in her being motivated to fulfill her self in ways that would be most gratifying to her based on her own wants and needs.
at 2 she is not fit to make those decisions. she is subject in a large way to her environment. our job is to try and figure out what she likes wants and needs and encourage and nurture those things. if we were to simply encourage her in the things we liked then we would be doing her a huge disservice. this is not our motivation.
she has already shown that she is interested in music. derek and i are figuring out how to nurture this. we'd be dropping the ball if we stifled it after "guitar" was one of the first words she learned and she dances most violently to the guitar-based songs.
And how is the presence of alternatives stifling? Do you also limit acess to sports and books? You should of course encourage her interest in guitars, but shielding her from other potential interests is not encouragment.
If "Rock Band" was her first words, would you hide your real guitars from her?
I think you are both wrong by not asking the relevant question:
Why is it important for you that your daughter plays real guitar instead of Rock Band?
She has an interest in music. It might be best satisfied by just listening to it, by playing rock band or by learning a real instrument. It might be some combination of the three. Why have you both decided that one of them is "bad" if it means that she will prefer it over another?
If she is interested enough she will learn to play an instrument, with or without Rock Band. The game might even help her reach the required level of interest. But it is also possible that she feels that Rock Band gives her all the music experience she needs without the hard work of a real instrument. That is not a problem!
Would you want that Mario Golf didn't exist just to force you out on the course? Would you prefer a world without Counter Strike because it might have increased the chances of you joining the army? Do you blame Civilization that you will never become a great leader of an empire?
You probably don't but yet both of you want to protect your daughter from the simulation if it decreases her need for the real thing. That is wrong. The real thing will always be the only thing good enough for some people but most of us feels that the simulation is better by gives us an experience good enough for much less work. If Rock Band prevents your daughter from becoming a musician she might use the time she saves to be a great painter or do excel in sports. Or she might just want to sample a lot of stuff instead of devote a lot of time to one interest.
I would have understood you if this was a matter of learning something essential for making a living or doing something that is necessary to stay in physical shape, but playing music or computer games is all about self fulfillment. What you are doing here is limiting her options to increase the chances that she will choose a method for self fulfillment that you find superior. You need to drop that notion. Music isn't better or worse than video games. Doing it the hard way is not better or worse than doing it the easy way. The best way is what makes her happy, not what makes you happy!
I realize that you are a lot closer to my opinion than your wife is, but you still seems to feel a need to explain why Rock Band will not decrease her interest in real instruments, and that video games in general will not replace "real" interests. I would advice you to reconsider that and focus on the last part you wrote:
"She will pick doing the things that she likes doing based on the things we expose her to. As long as she has access to varied experiences, she'll end up being the person she is supposed to be. If that's a rocker playing guitar, that's fine. If she ends up being a professional video game player, I think that's fine too. And I don't think they'll ever be mutually exclusive activities."
As a "veteran" parent of a nearly-six daughter, I'm surprised Derek and Laura are even worrying about this. Two years old? Unless there's something objectionable in the Rock Band content (that can't simply be avoided by not playing certain songs), I can't see it as a real concern. I think you two might simply be overthinking something that isn't a big deal.
When she's maybe seven or eight and can actually play Rock Band, then you can start to worry about whether or not she's becoming too focused on video games. At two, though, I think Rock Band - or just about any video game - is a huge step up from shows like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuiynIn-g9s">Teletubbies or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ-nif4rXGs">Boobah! [shudder] My daughter saw Boobah come on once (after some other show like Dora the Explorer) and she loved it... talk about brain candy that will teach your kid nothing useful! But maybe I'm being overly harsh; I'm sure there's some child research showing it helps stimulate brain development in 1 year olds. (Problem is my daughter was three or four at the time.)
the issue is that anything and everything a child is exposed to contributes to their development in ways that even developmental psychology is not able to fully comprehend or explain. i agree that there may be an impact from showing her that i can push buttons on a guitar like controller and get a response from the video game. but i don't know what that impact could or even might be.
i'm grateful that laura can think in terms of worst case scenarios, because i'm not that way at all. sure, sometimes we get into cost / benefit arguments over things, but this isn't really one where any potential benefit that i can see would out weight the potential issues laura sees.
Considering worst case scenarios are only productive when planning ahead about what to do *if* they happen.
When reducing risks you must think in terms of (risk of event happening) * (negative impact of event) compared to cost of preventing the risk. Many parent's says that you cannot be that rational when it comes to your children but that is exactly the situation where you need to be rational. Why increase the total risk you children is exposed to because it feel better for you. That is selfish.
But the main question remains unanswered: Why does she (and you?) find it so important that your daughter plays an instument when she grows up?
Yes, it brings *you* joy. And if it does the same for her she will do it. But if she gets more joy from Rock Band, why should she play guitar? Not everyone wants to play an instrument. She is not you.
she isn't exposed to either enough to know if she can get "more" enoyment from rock band or the real thing. that's a big part of my point. you're right, she isn't me, but how much sense does it make to avoid giving her access to a joy that has been part of her family tree for longer than the current living members? hey, i like video games, too. and eating. maybe i should avoid passing those joys on, as well.
Noone have suggested that you should avoid giving her access to instruments or present them in a positive way. But you have decided to avoid giving her acess to Rock Band out of fear that she will choose it instead.
What would you tell a parent that decided to not expose their child to music instuments because they fear it could become more interested in them than their favorite recreation Rock Band?
Ask the military why they use video war games to de-sensitize recruits. Denial does not change the negative impact that many video games have on the young or those who believe themselves to be adults.
We live in an age when most any inappropriate behavior can be rationalized - which is quite unfortunate. One needs to look no further than the internet or prime time TV to see a complete loss of good judgment and personal values. In the quest for financial greed, the social demise of America will be rationalized by all who have a vested interest and/or poor judgment.
...and yet, the US military has the largest amount of young recruits
crying about the hell of war. Killing someone in a game and someone in real life will never feel the same, what a load of bull.
Quote: "Any word we use has a meaning and can be effective in conveying an idea."
Do you really just use 'certain words' to convey an idea (or even should you? Do you really want people to know how you feel when you use these words? Is it edifying?), or are you actually frustrated/angry and want/need to take it out on someone/something? IMHO, the use of expletives displays a breach in self control, or in broader language, a breach in character. I will admit, I haven't been able to completely eliminate them from my own conversation(half the time I'm talking to my computer :))but it's one of my goals.
I have nothing against all these off topic posts--as long as they don't take away from your reviews and other content. And please, (to all the editors at AnandTech) lay of the keyword dropping! If you keep this up, we will start shunning anything that says 'women' on it--legit or not.
actually, i do just use "certain words" to convey an idea. most of the time i don't use them from a place of frustration or anger.
the use of expletives is not a breach in self control -- a breach in self control is a breach in self control. i can use any of a number of "regular" words to convey ideas much more offensive than any expletive. i can do this from a place of frustration and anger in order to take it out on something or someone. if you want to be edifying for yourself, it is your own motivation and state of mind rather than the words you use that will or will not build you up. if you want to be edifying to others than the words you use may or may not have any impact on them, depending on who they are and how they feel. you can tear people down without expletives and you won't necessarily tear people down even when you do use them. being polite and considerate are two different things -- you can be considerate without being polite depending on the company you keep, but being polite is a way to assist in conveying consideration to people you do not know and are therefore unable to fully consider.
it really isn't about the words ... its about the impact the word has on others and the intent of the person saying the word. and that can be any words at all.
I have RB1 and just got RB2. I have a couple of games for the 360, but that is what I play the most by far.
But seriously... what is wrong with waiting till the kids go to bed and play? Do you think they are going to pick up on how easy fake instruments are to play while sleeping?
And even if they do get into the game it will probably only stimulate interest in the real thing later in life when they can take advantage of their increased hand-eye-ear coordination.
man ... my wife and i just about pass out every night when our kid goes to bed. she's exhausting!
but, yeah, that's not a bad idea. the only other issue is that my wife doesn't want the rock band kit cluttering up the living room ... and she doesn't think i can be organized enough to put it away every time i finish playing (and she'd be right about that)
My personal experience is really different from both your opinions. My father died when I had 5 years old, and when I was 10 I got my first computer. In my family, I'm the only pc enthusiast. My mother never censored me with anything. She always tough that RPGs are evil, and stuff like that, but I pretty much experienced it all when it comes to games and movies... I think that this experience made me a more open-minded person. If my mom had to pick everything that I play or see, how would I be a responsible grow up?
Of course, the situation with your kid is waaaaay different. She's really to young to decide for herself. But hey, in some point, we all are. That brings us to another question: who the hell are we to say what other people can't do?
Ok, I've gone a little to far here. I do agree that parents have to choose for their kids until a certain age. But then, they should help them to decide, not choose for them. It worked for me. Can it work for other people? Good question. Like the one you left for us. WHo says life has to be easy? ;)
Both you and your wife raise interesting points, Derek.
I think video games raise interest in other activities in children rather than quench desires. In the same way that books and movies fill kids with awe and make them want to experience the real thing, so too can video games. I don't think a kid is any more likely to think to themselves, Why become an astronaut when I can just sit on my couch and play Asteroids? than they are likely to think, Why become an astronaut when I can just look at this book of photographs that NASA published? They just want to become the astronaut.
It is a matter of providing children with an avenue of pursuit and shielding them from the negative outlook of most adults who have lived through the death of their own ambitions. Of course, it isn't quite so simple as that, but at the crux of it I really believe that video games, movies and media of all sorts are being scapegoated for an overall lack of guidance by adults. If you provide a rich and fulfilling experience for your daughter, I would have no fear that she will lack ambition. Ambition is the one thing that children possess in droves, and it is only by example that they learn to give it up. I say let her play Rock Band 2, and as she gets older, make sure she is surrounded by interesting, ambitious and driven people. People, after all, are a product of their environments, not the games they play -- unless the games become the environment, which is entirely in your hands as parents.
Thanks for the interesting read. That was the last thing I expected to see on the front page of Anandtech!
Now how about some more Lucid Hydra 100 goodness? Go twist their arm, we need independent tests! I hear they are close to (or beyond) final silicon!? I wonder how long until they have beta drivers available for public consumption... Mmmmmm, consumption.
Usually it`s the kids who take offense to what Derek has to say!
They say there is nothing like the internet when it comes to being what you want to be even if you are only a 13 year old kid trying to be an adult!! lol
Blog posts are given the same credence as an article, and are listed in the same area and given prime coverage on the front page. . . is that not what an article is?
AnandTech is now a parenting advice website? Since when? Anyway, you have a 2 year old kid and you're wondering if "Rock Band 2" is appropriate for her...probably not. Your wife is right on this one. As a rule of thumb, don't subject your kids to words you don't want her to know the definition of in true detail. If you think it's OK for her to use the fcuk at 2 years old, you should be just as comfortable explaining to her what that word means in the type of detail you'd find on a porn site. Would you do that? I doubt it. It's a slippery slope so even if you think words like sh!t are OK, they often lead to other words that may not be OK.
I have no problem with different content on Anandtech. What I'm surprised at is the reasons for not getting Guitar Hero 2. Music is nice and all, but to become really good takes a ton of effort, which is why most people never go far. I seriously doubt a game is going to make it any less likely that a kid pursues music as a career.
Language and content on the other hand would be a huge concern for me, especially for a young child. My (ex) dropped the f-bomb a lot, and I can't tell you how upset I was when my 3 year old started saying it. She had no idea what it meant, but she heard mommy yell it so it was "fine" to repeat. Kids are sponges and parrots: they'll learn precisely the things you don't want them to know (by watching their parents), and they will repeat anything they hear.
In my kid's case, she's hopefully more likely to repeat sports or computer terms now rather than to quote lyrics from the latest horrible RIAA promoted album.
You know, for that matter I really hope my kid never has a desire to go into the music industry. If she wants to do choir or band, (or opera or orchestra or musicals) that's cool, but wanting your child to become a rock star is akin to wanting your kid to become a movie star. Have you seen the way those people behave? No thanks! Keep your money; I'll stick to my morals. It's unfortunate we don't have more people with morals these days. It's also a shame that more parents don't actually take some time to think a bit about what it is their children are learning from TV/computers/friends.
i don't want my kid to be a rock star -- i don't even want her to want to be a rock star ...
but playing guitar is completely different, and i actually made a good bit of cash during college playing out around town. not a rock star by a long shot, but its a very satisfying skill to have.
i understand the argument to not want to take away a drive or desire to spend the time learning.
As a 23 year old, I have been playing videogames from a monochrome XT and Intellivision up to the latest and greatest gaming PCs and the Xbox 360/PS3/etc.
I have always loved driving games. I remember the first "Need for Speed" game demo (back when it was from Road & Track Magazine and handled fairly realistically) and I played it about a million times. I believe that these games led me into my current interest in cars and love for driving. I despise a vehicle that takes control away from me (automatic transmission, for example) and enjoy driving in any form. I don't feel the urge to become a race car driver, but if I had the disposable income I'm sure I'd start rallying.
I believe that if I hadn't played these games my interest would not be the same as it is today. (Then again, I was also brought up correctly and do not think shooting people is a great idea, in spite of what the media would like to think Doom and Duke Nukem 3D will do to you.)
you're 23 and played intellivision? I'm 15 years older, and Intellivision was almost (but not quite) before MY time, while I probably saw my last mono-xt around the time you were 6.
Yeah, I'm there with you. I played the Intellivision and used mono XT (and AT and PC Jr.), but the last monochrome PC we had must have been in the late 80s at best - more likely around 87. I was 14 at the time, which would make you 3.
It appears the Intellivision was officially discontinued in 1991, but it was basically on life support since 1984. He probably just had parents that preferred to go with economical purchases rather than the latest and greatest? :)
I'm 22 turning 23 in November '08. I played Intellivision. Was my dad's. Once I got into playing it he broke down, and bought a NES, not that he didn't want it as well. At home we had a i386 and I logged many hours in Tie-Fighter and X-wing as well as Wolfenstein 3D and later Doom. While at school we still had Apple II's until I was in 4th or 5th grade when they upgraded all the computer lab, computers to Power Macintosh 5500s. They then split the old computers up between the classrooms, and inside recesses were wasted away playing Oregon Trail.
37 years old, and played Intellivision my dad bought an Intellivision as soon as it came out. I would think if you are 23, then the NES would be the game system you would start out on (or even SNES).
Another good question:
Quote: As parents we have the responsibility to make sure our children understand reality and are able to function within the context of our current society.
"Hey, have you seen my new kid-machine 2.0?"
"Yeah, it runs neato, cause yesterday I overclocked it to HumanSpeech, release 7"
"Oh, really? Mine didn't function that well in our current society so I gave it to a recycling guy. Maybe he can use the spare parts."
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skace - Monday, October 6, 2008 - link
To believe what Laura is saying undermines a lot of what human beings are and what we do. Why would Michael Jordan strive to be the best basketball player when he could just be decent? Why even be in the pros when he could playing amateur? Why play amateur when he could play in the backyard with family? Why play basketball when he could play nerf basketball? Why play nerf basketball when he could just play basketball on a console with a fake crowd cheering him on? Why play on a console when he could just watch others on TV play the sport for him? Why watch it on TV when he could just close his eyes and dream about playing basketball?Why? Because we are a competitive and challenging race. We like knocking down barriers, we like being the best, we like proving we can do what nobody else can do, paving our own individuality. Guitar Hero won't challenge your child for long and eventually they will want to build on that - to take their skill and apply it to something more difficult.
If you want to introduce your kid to basketball, you don't wait until he's 16, hand him a ball and then tell him to dunk it. You start sooner than that, as soon as he can roll any old ball along the floor. Then some day maybe he can dribble or shoot a nerf ball into a hoop or play catch. You play the games on TV and let him listen in on it. Everything related becomes a part of that. Working out, exercising. It all becomes necessary building blocks.
If you want your kid to play an instrument the first part is making sure they enjoy music, listen to it, dance to it, enjoy it! Guitar Hero is just another window into music, spurring their imagination forward and creating dreams of what they could become. Everyone who dreams big needs that reminder of what they are dreaming for. More accessibility into music, in any way shape or form is not a bad thing. It only becomes a problem when your child refuses to learn a guitar because they enjoy guitar hero too much. And when you come to that point you have to really ask yourself if your child even wants to actually play a real guitar or you have to ask them that. Heck, show them the videos on youtube of all the young kids who can play real video game music on their guitars. It's always, always 100x more impressive than the guitar hero videos.
Sometimes we focus too much on the end result that we forget all the building blocks along the way that lead to it. That's why sometimes the most skilled individuals have so much trouble being teachers, they've forgotten where they started from.
SgtJonson - Wednesday, October 1, 2008 - link
You compared Guitar Hero to playing an instrument. Guitar Hero does not equal playing an instrument. When you are done playing Guitar Hero that is it, it does not translate to doing something in reality.Your dish scenario implies that the magic is real and the end result of each process is the same. So obviously you would choose magic cleaning dishes to hard cleaning dishes if the end result was clean dishes.
You can choose Guitar Hero, but the end result is different. Hope that makes some sense.
1jdan - Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - link
Just wondering if either of you has changed your thinking after reading any of the replies?Cheers, John
v12v12 - Monday, September 22, 2008 - link
I was about to post a long post about wtf I think this sort of topic doesn't at all belong on the front page(s) of AT. But... I think I'll wait it out and let my anti-Derek side cool off. Man I really do wanna slam the hammer down though... Parenting-101 on AT? Lmao, guess I'll swing over to overclockers.com and see what bias-injected opinions their lousy Ed has to say. Least Xbit labs knows where the meat is at... Ciao.wvh - Saturday, September 20, 2008 - link
I think I agree with your wife. Children need to learn to work hard and invest time in at least some of the activities they do. I have no problem with TV, internet and computer games, but children also need to learn to focus and persist.
I have played guitar since the age of 7-8. I originally became interested in music because as a toddler, my parent gave me a (real) keyboard, flute, miniature drum kit, that sort of things (I'm not sure what I would have done if my parents would have given me a game console and these games instead). I've studied classical guitar and music theory for 10 years, and I play electrical guitar for hours each day. As a result, I'm quite good at it. For some reason, people always want to challenge me to play these games, because somehow, it seems to validate their "skill", if they can win from me, they can imagine to play on a real stage in front of a real crowd, too. I find it terribly embarrassing how people try to relate to real musicians and rockstars, not because I'm so damn pretentious, but because they equate their plastic toy with years of blood, sweat and tears, and shitloads of time invested. If even adults have a slight perceptional problem here, I can see how it might have a negative influence on children.
If children "learn" art with some computer program that draws perfect paintings for them, music with some plastic controllers and fake crowd sounds, or sports with some pitiful simulation, they basically learn nothing and will have no real skills at a later age. What's more, depending on the rest of their education ofcourse, they will have no persistence and never have learned to work hard for something.
I'm not saying that it's wrong for children to play these games per se; not if they have other, real-life activities that help them to develop and find out things to do in life. Next to TV and computer games, there should be time for real sports, music, drawing or whatever hobby that develops skill and persistence. And some social skills, perhaps. This balance is important, and I think children have too much "useless" entertainment these days.
Anyway, I'm grateful that my parents motivated and supported me to take up music and sports – they always said you can do anything you want, but you will do something. If you are like that with your children, I don't think it matters much if they play these games in their spare time.
And to wrap things up – I don't get the attraction of this game, it's basically little more than an arcade sort of game which bears no relation to actually playing music at all. I can understand how one would like to play games with lots of shooting, violence, rape and other things that are not erm... advised in a real life context, but twiddling a plastic toy guitar with a fake crowd cheering is beyond me.
ristal - Friday, September 19, 2008 - link
I haven't read all the responses, so if something similar has already been said I apologize.That said, I have a couple of observations to make.
First being, it sounds to me like you're planning on not purchasing the game solely because you don't think it's appropriate for your daughter. She's 2 years old! So you keep it packed up and on the top shelf of a closet somewhere and only play it when she's sound asleep or out at the grandparent's house or out at the park with Mom or whatever. I'd be surprised if you don't own a single movie that you wouldn't want her watching any time soon... as a fellow 'grownup' I personally must say I can only take so many cartoons and/or so much 'edutainment'. So if this is your only significant argument for not buying the game, I disagree. It's not like we're talking about keeping a porn collection or something. If you keep it put away properly when the child is around, I doubt she'd be getting into it any time soon, not to mention I'm not sure how many
2yo's could manage to get the game, put it into the appropriate gaming system (all the while ignoring the interesting components like the 'drum set') start it up and find something inappropriate to listen to without someone noticing, if she can then either she's one gifted child or you guys seriously need to consider some parenting classes, in particular ones that focus on being observant :) (Just to avoid any unintended insult this is intended as a sarcastic statement, personally I've found that most people who would fall into such a category would not be having a debate such as this)
For the sake of argument, let's address the issues against your daughter playing the game.
Let's start with the 'taking the joy out of real life activities' concept. Beginning with the dish washing example. That sounds like a great game, I'd rush to copyright the idea if I were you. But kidding aside, say such a game did exist, sure after playing the game you might never want to wash dishes the old way again, but guess what: A) you've still got a sink full of dirty dishes that needs washing the old way. And B) Guess what? You never wanted to wash them the old way to begin with, I mean come on, who WANTS to wash dishes? So did playing the game REALLY influence your view on washing dishes, I doubt it, there's even a remote chance, if you've got a good imagination, that playing the game could give you ideas as to how to enjoy actually washing the dishes (well, ok, not enjoy but at least make it less tedious... "Finally, the perfectly clean dish is dried and placed into the cabinet! THE CROWD GOES WILD!!!!!!!!" But anyway the point is, that unless there is some amazing leap in virtual reality technology games will not replace reality during our, or even your daughter's lifetime. IMO this particular objection is ridiculous.
When it comes down to it, there are two basic components to doing things in life. There's talent, and training. One without the other is pretty much useless. However, especially when it comes to artistic things like music, talent is by far the dominant of the two. Even if your daughter has no talent for piano, sure you could start her on piano lessons at 2 or 3 or 4, and force her to practice for the next 12-16 years give or take and she might become a fairly good pianist, it's unlikely that she'll ever enjoy it, and there will always be some 4 year old prodigy out there that can blow her out of the water no mater how hard she practices. The point is, just as you said, there is something much more satisfying about achieving something real in real life.
What it comes down to is this: Will there be more kids giving up on playing guitar since games like guitar hero and rock band have come out? I strongly suspect the answer is yes. But I also suspect, that the reason is not that the games themselves will make them give up, I believe that more kids will be quitting playing guitar because more kids will be tempted to TRY to play guitar, and I believe that is a very good thing. I think it's insane to believe that the next generation will miss out on any of it's potential great musicians because they gave up because it wasn't as fun as playing Rock Band 2. I'm not an expert but I believe that when someone has a talent for something, they enjoy doing it, sure even the best musicians get tired of practicing from time to time, but they persevere, not because they never played rock band :) but because they enjoy playing, and playing well.
OK, another issue, your wife says something to the effect that if she decides to learn to play guitar and is passionate about it then it would be ok for her to play. Well there is a major flaw in that idea. What if she never becomes passionate about playing guitar? I enjoy playing some of the Karaoke games from time to time, has that inhibited me from becoming a singer? I doubt it. More likely it's the fact that I'm a mediocre vocalist at best. But I have fun playing anyway, and I still have the sense not to go out to bars or restaurants on karaoke night. Our daughter plays clarinet in school, she started out trying to play the flute, but wasn't able to produce the notes properly. The band teacher was able to find an alternative (the clarinet) and she plays quite well at this point in my highly biased opinion. She's been playing guitar hero for around the same length of time, and sadly has surpassed my own abilities by a fair margin. We've always had to push her to practice, but never beyond what I believe to be normal for her age. Practicing is like washing the dishes, it's not the most exciting thing in the world but it has to be done from time to time, and so far we've managed to keep her going without starting any major world or household wars. Also since she started playing guitar hero she's become more interested in taking up playing real guitar. We just don't have the resources to invest in that venture at this time, but hopefully it's something we'll be able to pursue in the (relatively) near future.
I agree with your wife that most parents should have higher standards, I just think her arguments in this case aren't realistic.
As with anything else, is it possible that in a few isolated and rare instances her scenario will play out as she fears, sure. But I believe in nearly all cases any kid that picks up a guitar after playing guitar hero and quits, would have quit anyway, assuming they would even have made the attempt had it not been for GH/RB/etc.
I feel the same way about 'violent' games, I played street fighter, and mortal kombat, and various other games that pushed the boundries of reality and gore when I was a teenager, did I ever for a second think it would be a good idea to chop off someone's head or blow them away with a double barreled shot gun?
...
Ok, there may have been one time...
really, no, never.
Is it possible that even one of the kids that has committed a violent act since those games came out might not have done it had they never seen violence... maybe
Is it likely? I seriously doubt it.
Sorry got slightly off topic there... as for the lyrics issue, let's look at the facts again... your daughter is 2! I don't know how much she'd be able to play RB at 2, but even if she could and you were going to let her, I'd hope you would be supervising her when she was playing, so you only allow her to play songs you feel are ok.
Anyway, I could go on, I haven't even brought up the internet, it's out there, with lots of good and tons of bad, and sooner or later she's probably going to be using it. But anyway I've rambled enough. I just want to say, that although I disagree on this point, it's great that you're being an active and informed parent (even if I believe you're misinformed on this issue :) Good luck, and keep up the good work, there will be a long time where she wont appreciate it, but eventually she'll understand :)
Laura Wilson - Friday, September 19, 2008 - link
thanks for the (thorough) comment. :-)i just wanted to tell you that my first guitar literally cost $65 and it was shipped to me at my apartment when i was a sophomore in college. there are also used instrument stores with cheap but really great guitars. you might be able to afford the expense for your daughter's sake if you look around a bit. i'm just a sucker for a child's interest in creative outlets, and i'm also a believer in the power of learning music. scientists say it is even linked to mathematical comprehension, and i'm a walking example of that (reading music since childhood, applied mathematics degree in college). it's really cool that your daughter wants to play guitar, i hope she gets the chance to learn!
1jdan - Thursday, September 18, 2008 - link
Hey guys,I went back and read all the posts. Their is something about music. When you play it for very little children they move.
I bet your daughter will play because you do, not because she is told or programed to like one of the guys is trying to say. And their is a big difference in playing music and MAKING music. Their is no art in RB or GH. We all read, but not all of us truly write. Trying to see if your child can create, well, thats worth a little push.
Finally - Saturday, September 20, 2008 - link
That's interesting!A few days ago, there was a celebration with live music on the street I live in. A big festival of the whole quarter. The band played hand-made music, a bit in the style of the Doors.
I have a window in direct view of the street, so I just stood there and watched the people, kids and dogs walking by.
Then there came a mom with her children. Once they were in range of the music, the children started moving like a superior force had attached strings to their feet and pulled it in the rhythmn of the drum. They really looked like marionettes, but the expression on their faces was great job.
Hearing music + moving feet = natural reaction, it seems.
What a pity, that they will grow older and "cooler".
Finally - Saturday, September 20, 2008 - link
job --> joyFerzerp - Thursday, September 18, 2008 - link
After reading this whole thing, my only comment is-- how are you going to react when, without the big bad evil rock band, she still doesn't want to play an instrument?It seems like you have an interest in forcing it to happen.
1jdan - Thursday, September 18, 2008 - link
Hey Derek,I am 46, love my games, computer and console, and have two boys 11 and 9. I think you and your wife are doing the right things. Talking over the issues and debating them and picking the conservative route when their is no agreement. You spell it out in the third paragraph on reality. I had grey market tv back in the day and when that stopped one day we just let it ride. The boys, 5 and 3 at the time, began, after complaining for two days, to find other ways to play, not really pushed by us. Days turned to years. I noticed that when they were with friends they could find things to do when the others would complain. And they hated going to others houses because when they watched their shows it would stop every 5 minutes for the adds. I download all their shows, they come home and say dad everyone is talking about "?" , so I download it and they watch it.
In the meantime we had our games! Over the years we have played all the types, including RB. Now my oldest is starting to show signs of not wanting to participate in the REAL world a little and this has my wife and I talking. I am not talking going GOTH or anything just little things we see and hear. We just might try the old TV solution again on him. My youngest does not really play all that much and would rather go play with friends outside. They are different and these things happen slowly if your paying attention.
A friend of mine with older kids once told me the two most important things. She said kids are like elastic bands " if you pull them really hard in one direction they will snap back in the other when they get their freedom" and that she did not punish them all the time for making mistakes but instead talked with no giving of advice or orders. If we are to have any control over their lives later, as teens , when they could make decisions that could really hurt them, we need to be able to talk and they feel they can come to us for help with no fear of punishment or lecture.
I have used the games and movies we watch to teach them about the REAL world. The language in these we talk about all the time. Your daughter will know all these words soon enough. How and when to use them IS the issue. You are right that any word can be said to mean hate. But we must try to be aware of others feelings.
My little one had nightmares and we traced it to movies he had seen with bigger kids. Thus I began to show him about the fakeness in movies, the special effects. On slow motion and no sound even CGI looks bad. I had them make their own movie to show them how they make someones arm come off, you know props and different shots. all shown real fast, it looks good. He wanted to see "cloverfield". So I gave him a lesson on suspense. You know,why the blair witch movie worked bcause you never really see anything and your mind makes it far worse than the reality. I went to the frame in the movie, "cloverfield", where the monster was standing over the boy and froze it. with no sound playing and a bad CGI monster he was dissapointed that it looked like every other monster he had seen. point for me! They have become quite the critics.
The last thing is about what age to give them this information. sometimes they bring it up like a nightmare and sometime we try to pre-pare them for things. I live in canada also and you know how it is with hockey, well mine wouldn't skate. One of my good friends is a scout and he was telling all of us one day, a bunch of hockey dads and me the outcast, that this push to make them so good so early does nothing to improve their chances. So many in the NHL dont even find the sport until the are over 12.
Anyway, you and your wife are both right. Their is no roadmap and no one knows your own daughter like you two. You Teach, You Watch, You Three learn. And their should be ratings on games and shows just to help out with decisions. You are your own liquor control board!!
John, Cheers
p.s. keep up the great writing, tech and all.
JWalk - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
Yeah, compromise. In most marriages it works out in exactly this way. You want to do one thing, your wife wants to do another. Then you "compromise" and do what she wants to do. lolBut here are a couple of real points I'd like to make. I have heard the over-used argument before that playing Guitar Hero or Rock Band discourages kids from playing real instruments. It is ridiculous. Unless your kid only wants to know how to "play" a set library of songs in the exact same way over and over again, then a video game will never be real competition to playing a real instrument. Music creation and interpretation, and the ability to learn how to play ANY song you like (or can think up) are all major reasons to learn how to play a real guitar.
That also kills the dish-washing analogy. The difference in the two dish-washing scenarios was the ease of the task. The end result remained the same: The dishes were clean. But a video game guitar and a real guitar don't reach the same ending. You aren't playing a song with a plastic guitar controller. You are playing a game. Give your daughter some credit. She will understand the difference.
Oh, and one last thing. It is also obvious that this is your first and only child. If you had more children, you would not have the time to indulge in this level of "over parenting". You would just be happy they were willing to sit and play a game together, without trying to kill each other or burn your house down.
Relax a little. She is going to turn out ok. ;)
bigbacon - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
I saw the word shield in there. Shielding kids from stuff is the problem with kids today. I'm not saying you should just let them romp around and do whatever they want like lots of people do, but something like this that can actually give them some good, build coordinations and such while giving enjoyment shouldn't be shielded. She'll either like it or she won't. If she already has a liking for music and she hates the game, thats not going to kill the liking for music.Plus, most kids know the differece between game and life. Unless she doesn't get that, then you'll have issues but you will NEVER know unless you let her try things. You can explain to her that it's a game and not like playing a real guitar while still trying to build that musical influence that you say she is showing.Finally - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
I have read the article and most of the comments and I strongly disagree.My first thought was: Another perfect™ example of American parental overprotectionism.
You want to protect your child against everything, which means you want to shield if from the whole world, filled with cursing, murdering, child-molesting, internet-raping, predating bad guys, who have only 1 purpose in life: to get your daugther. Yeah... so you turn your house into a nice, toy-filled pink and white decorated prison.
The problem with that kind of attitude is, that you instill FEAR on your child. FEAR of the outside world, FEAR of (completely friendly) strangers, FEAR that there is a terrorist boogeyman behind each and every corner, FEAR of everything that's not pre-labeled "safe to use" by her very parents: you, the almighty dictators over her little life. The sentence: "...it's my house and as long as you live here... (not that you are allowed to leave)..." comes to mind.
Another problem is that you can't protect your children from everything. Heck, sometimes failing or getting hurt is part of the learning process. I guess you want her to learn walking without falling even ONE TIME. Bad news: won't happen.
Besides, pain is one of the quickest and best learning stimuli that exist out there, imagine this:
"Darling, please don't touch the oven, it's hot."
"Please darling, don't touch it, it's still hot."
*touches it out of unsatisfied curiosity* which leads to a small burning, quick pain reflex, big crying, but a lesson learned for life: she will never touch a hot oven again.
Of course you don't give children guns and knifes to play with.
But there is a difference between overprotectionism and safety.
Imho 9/11 has changed America for the worse: fear-mongering seems to be norm.
And if you don’t overprotect your children: „Come here, mommy, that’s the BAD PARENT sticker just for you!“
Yes, and sometimes I actually ask myself how children could grow up in the 50ies or in the 19th century without all that safety measures around them, without GPS chips inplanted into their body to locate them 24/7 and without parental control locks on every toy they might get their hands on... how did they grow up?
I guess this is all because the invention of childhood. In earlier times children were seen as adults. Of course they differed in size. But they had all the responsibilites. If you grew up in a big family with 6 or more children and had the simple-sounding task of "go, look after your brothers and sisters" - you had a freak-lot of responsibility to shoulder.
In the modern age the concept of childhood was invented and with it came the declaration of children as total stupid, unresponsible morons, who have to be spooonfed (and I don't just mean food by that) till they are 18.
I remember a diary entry by Werner Herzog (a German independent film maker) who visited a jungle tribe, far from so-called civilization. There, the people lived in huts and the men used very sharp machetes for work and travel in the jungle. When they were at home, they simply put those tools on the ground. According to them no toddler was ever hurt by one of the machetes.
How come? I asked myself. Aren't children total idiots, who set the house on fire if you leave them alone for 5 minutes?
Guess not. But you have to change the premise, your point of view on children to start with...
You have to treat them like intelligent beings who can and will live up to responsibility if they are really given some.
Second: What I think about products like Rock Band:
You want to strip out the heart and soul oft artist’s work (e.g. lyrics) to make it „safer“ (<-- here, it's the signal word again: safe, everything has to be safe and family friendly). But guess what? "Rock" isn't just a genre. It has a meaning (or meant something, till parents came and considered playing black metal on guitar pro as great, funny parenting). Rock, at least to me, means rebellion against conservatism. What you propagate is some kind of BARBIE’S BEATY QUEEN POP BAND ADVENTURES (heck, even ABBA had songs about drug use (fly like an eagle) and capitalism (money, money, money).
You complain about Rock Band’s usage of original songs with original lyrics...
Those original lyrics are - per definition - not family-friendly or "safe for kids" or whatever bullshit you want them to be. They are, if they aren't made by big media corporations of today, songs of rebellion, songs of drugs, sex and rock’n’n roll, songs about serious and funny things, songs about trying your hardest to check the boundaries oft aestethics... and, you might have guessed it, this includes rebelling against your parents...
I recommend watching PBS Frontline: The way the music died.
Industry has understood and made it a big, big, BIG DOLLAR. Teenage rebellion has become yet another product and parents in their midlife crisis' are even better buyers than little kids as they trying harder to be more youthful than ever before.
But what does the child do if it encounters this? What does it do when it finally realizes that all that pseudo-rebellion is yet another marketing scam? As fake as wrestling? As fake as punk?
Well, there are extremes for that child to go to... like Gangsta Rap or Black Metal. …which are yet the same product from the same music corporation with a differening marketing target: "What, you don't like mainstream Rhianna? Well, here is some Marilyn Manson for you - same label btw, so we made sure that your money safely travels to US, the big music industry – isn’t that great? That’s the very definition of SELLING-OUT. And you got no chance around it.
What shall be left?
No rebellion at all.
Quote:
it's still my job as her parent to not subject her to imagery like "come and drink it up from my fertility" and "drink my juice young love chug-a-lug me."
I like the English language. You have two words which have only one equivalent in German:
playing vs. gaming.
Play is a free-for-all sandbox of fantasy. And children, especially girls don’t play nice.
[quote] Then again, girls' refusal to "play nice" has an equally long history. Victorian girls used the trays from their tea parties to toboggan down stairways; they tortured their dolls and held elaborate mock-funerals for them.[/quote]
I recommend reading the whole article: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issu...">http://www.escapistmagazine.com/article...a-Barbie...
BarbieGirls is an Orwellian overprotectionist parent’s dream come true.
All the censorship we need to ensure safety.
I actually like the idea of a Barbie orgy, complete with stripping, petting and loooots of fucking involved. There goes the safety! She just said a dirty word! Oh noooooo! Western culture is doooomed!
Laura Wilson - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
you clearly don't have kids. or you're currently doing a real number on them. and by the way, FEAR can also be a useful tool for human survival.when people treated kids like adults a long time ago it was because of a pathetically short lifespan, and little pre-pubescent girls who married middle aged men then died in childbirth didn't have the luxury of parents sifting through what they should and shouldn't be exposed to due to the need to continue the family name. i'm sure the girls also weren't asked how they felt about all that before it happened, either.
if simple protections for young children are so dangerous explain the misery of the children who have no one watching out for them. orphanage kids, abortion survivors, etc. rarely have an easy time adjusting to life as they grow.
the toddlers that never hurt themselves on the machetes probably couldn't pick them up. have you ever lifted one? they aren't like plastic light-sabers. but i suppose in the same way my child has been around the exposed phone jack her whole life now and hasn't been zapped by it. perhaps i should remove the gate from the stairs and let her take a few tumbles to learn a good lesson. i can't believe how difficult i've been making it, i've been doing it all wrong by caring at all. it's amazing, really, she's all of TWO FREAKING YEARS OLD, why am i still carrying around my "parent" business cards? she's totally ready to fly.
IgorLevicki - Thursday, September 18, 2008 - link
"you clearly don't have kids. or you're currently doing a real number on them."Why did you have to resort to an ad hominem attack? Shame on you.
In my opinion the key is this issue you have with yourself -- you have shown little to no self-control by the above reply, and you want to have control over someone else's life out of fear that they will turn out to be a copy of the uncontrollable you.
"and by the way, FEAR can also be a useful tool for human survival."
FEAR is never usefull -- it is paralyzing, it diminishes the capacity for rational thinking thus leading to poor (and sometimes fatal) decisions, and it does not stimulate one's mind to be inquiring.
Laura Wilson - Thursday, September 18, 2008 - link
really? ad hominem attack?"you turn your house into a nice, toy-filled pink and white decorated prison."
i thought i was talking to you on your level. your whole post was an attack.
without fear man wouldn't have the fight or flight impulse. any psychologist will tell you there's usefulness in adrenaline. the same as hunger, (which a lot of people are down on these days, when in fact they should be down on starvation) sorrow, and anger. an overly inquiring mind is just as likely as a fearful one to cause poor and sometimes fatal decisions, as well as clouding judgment. these bad choices are made based on the person's character, not emotions.
if fear is such a harmful emotion why has evolution (perhaps i'm assuming you are a believer in evolution, it's ok if you aren't) left us with it?
Laura Wilson - Thursday, September 18, 2008 - link
i now see you aren't the original poster of "why don't we just take off the safety labels and let the problem solve itself," sorry about my mix-up.Finally - Saturday, September 20, 2008 - link
Hello, I'm the original poster of Frank Zappa's quote, who thought it might be fitting.[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6...[/img]
Well. I've read through the responses and I don't understand why I have to have a baby in order to grant permission to comment on education of children. This is basic criticism. E.g.: You don't have to be a bestselling writer to get if someone has produced a book full of drivel. Otherwise there would be only a handfull of people on the world to criticize books...
Same goes with any work of art or skill. You don't have to be a master at it to point out flaws...
I think a world, where children are controlled by their parents up to the point that they get chips inplanted which give away their position, parent-locks on their electronic devices, cameras and microphones in their sleeping rooms and 24/7 surveillance is exactly mirroring the behaviour exercized by Ingsoz over the citizens in 1984, except all parents are in the lucky, all-powerful position of Big Brother/Sister.
I can understand that it feels nice to be so overwhelmingly powerful and to have it in one's might to completely shape a human's life. But I wouldn't be so sure if all of these precautions help your child (at all).
The children produced in Brave New World are happy. Because raising them has been professionalized by people who know best. Every time. It's also a great example of genetical manipulation. In the end, your product isn't really human anymore, but a happy sheep, willing to obey.
Do you know the Struwwelpeter? It's a children's "comic" book, teaching children how to behave and what they must not do in order to evade the gruesome punishment/death of the "evil child", which are closely portrayed in this book. It was written in the early 19th century. Today, we can only look at it as grotesque and rather violent, but it was an instant bestseller and even today it can be found in many families' homes.
Who tells you, that what you do is the right thing?
I've read a study which found, that if you let your child live in a clinically clean house, it has a much-much higher chance of catching allergies.
To come back on topic: In my mind, overshielding or overprotecting is never good (hence the name). Children are "built" to resist lots of damage. They are meant to fall sometimes and their bodies are best suited to withstand those learning side-effects. Just look at their bones, evolution and nature (or God, if you will) just prove to employ the best engineers and architects.
And once again, I ask you this: How did children grow up in the 80ies (without all those safety mumbo-jumbo)? That's just ~25years ago, not really a long time... I think there is a big industry, just waiting for the parent's dollar to sell them everything to make their homes children-proof...
But how do you sell protection? By creating a need!
It's like the Mafia, just ask them how to sell protection.. they know best. To me, this family-friendly-protect-your-child-now-it-might-be-in-danger-industry is nothing but the Mafia. They create fear through alerting the public by the means of massive media spam.
_______
Instead of exercising ad hominem attacks we could think of the reason why there is such a big need for security nowadays. I say it is man-made and serves industry's purposes. One example of human-generated mass-hysteria (there you have your fear; and you know what fear does? It turns the mass into one big flock of sheep that can be driven anywhere the wolves want):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKzF173GqTU">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKzF173GqTU
HavocX - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
"the toddlers that never hurt themselves on the machetes probably couldn't pick them up. have you ever lifted one?"You don't need to be able to pick one up to hurt yourself on it.
"ut i suppose in the same way my child has been around the exposed phone jack her whole life now and hasn't been zapped by it."
The electricity in the phone jack is too weak to hurt anyone.
Laura Wilson - Thursday, September 18, 2008 - link
"You don't need to be able to pick one up to hurt yourself on it."honestly, yes you kind of do. i've been around them, my brother and i used to slice through the forests behind our mountain home with machetes as kids. note, "kids", not toddlers. my parents made sure we knew how to handle them before setting us free with them.
"The electricity in the phone jack is too weak to hurt anyone."
correct. that's why i used the term "zapped" instead of "killed." you've been helpful, yet again.
Tigerlight - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
Like movies, books, and other media outlets I am prepared to argue that video games can introduce an interest in becoming something as opposed to satisfying that interest.Video games can introduce into a child's life the knowledge of the existence of a career/activity that perhaps they did know was an option for them, and inspire them to actually engage in it.
Yes, at this time your child is a bit young to be looking at career paths, hehe, but as with everything else, SOME video games do have an arguably valid place in education.
But at the end of the day, it's all personal choice what you consider appropriate.
Peeling - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
Imagine you open a book. Inside there are large, colourful illustrations with only a few simple words to read on each page. The entire story requires only a few minutes of your time, and within that short period you get to see amazing things, maybe get a little big scared (in a good, exciting way), but in the end everybody lives happily ever after. And when you're finished, mummy and daddy smother you with hugs and kisses and tell you how clever you are. Surely, nobody would ever want to sit down for hours with some brick-thick slab of unbroken text, not after being exposed to these dumbed-down feel-good stories at such a young, impressionable age.Clearly this is the most abject nonsense. We don't sit our toddlers down with Faulkner, and nor do we keep them illiterate to preserve the character-building challenge of struggling through it later in life.
My niece was introduced to the guitar through Guitar Hero. She now owns a real instrument, takes lessons, and practices on her own initiative, having been switched on to something she loves. She is if anything more likely to persevere now that she has a taste of what she's persevering for.
As for the game being easy - methinks you've never tried the tougher tracks on 'expert'. I defy anyone to claim that Chris Chike is doing something unremarkable. There's challenge aplenty - the only difference is that when you're starting out you are not forced to plink-plonk through turgid, off-putting beginner riffs; you get to play something worth listening to. And contrary to your wife's concerns, this does not result in children eschewing the harder levels of play in favour of endless easy-mode hits of simulated applause. Why? The same reason I don't read See Spot Run for pleasure anymore.
BD2003 - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
The way I see it, there are really two separate issues here regarding her wanting to learn a "real" instrument instead of the "watered down" version. There's the genuine love of music, something clearly intrinsically valuable. And then there's the aspect of overcoming that initial obstacle, also a valuable lesson to learn that transcends the music itself. I think music games can help on both counts.The challenge and frustration has basically already been covered - although the challenge is learning the fake instrument rather than the real one, the same core lesson doesnt change - you can do anything anyone else can, practice makes perfect - keep at it, and you'll get it right. IMO learning that early was probably the single most valuable thing I've ever kept in my mind throughout my entire life.
Then there's the love of music. That also needs to be learned, but I dont believe that there is any need for it to be intrinsically difficult when there are so many aides to make it an easy and enjoyable process. Its the appreciation itself thats valuable. The best students of any subject are those that enjoy what theyre learning, and it would be a shame to hinder that enjoyment by an insistence on making it as difficult as possible.
Listening to baby einstein tapes won't make a child a genius - I didnt learn to read by having my parents read to me, I learned to read by READING. Your child is not going to learn much about music by listening to you guys play or by strumming open strings and listening to the discordance - otherwise we'd all be rock gods from all the music we've listened to on the radio our entire lives. She *needs* to participate in the process to learn *anything*, no matter how basic a level, and I honestly cant think of any better age appropriate way for a very young child to do so than these games.
Theres no question that rock band is watered down, but thats exactly why you should want it! The context here is extremely important. Realize that we're dealing with not only a child, but a VERY young child. I question even the ability of a 2-year old to take on rock band, but playing a guitar or the drums at her age is absolutely beyond her physical ability. RB is essentially fisher-price music, which is exactly why we enjoy it - it allows us to participate in something we normally couldnt. Unless we know an instrument, we're all as clueless as your 2-year old when it comes to these things, so naturally we start at the bottom, where it's most enjoyable. Keep in mind that its only instant gratification to us adults - easy mode will be an uphill battle for a young child in RB, but at least they can physically take it on. Pondering how much closer to hendrix she would be if she spent more of her time playing a real guitar is a question to ask of a 12 year old, not a 2 year old - I'd be impressed if she could actually lift a guitar up at 2.
I'm far from a child psychologist, but my first degree was a bachelors in psychology, dealing primarily with cognition, memory and learning, with a side dose of child psych, so I feel like I can speak with a little bit of authority on the subject. Young children may appear stupid and clueless, but the truth is so far from that in reality. It may seem silly when a child throws things around and giggles, but what theyre actually doing is learning how the physics of the world work. Learning to walk is an incredibly difficult process not because theyre stupid, but because it involves the coordination of hundreds of muscles, and it takes a long time to get that straight. Most everyone is still a little in awe when they see a young child pick up language so incredibly fast, but thats hardly taxing - thats what theyre built to do. There is a certain trigger in the brain that kicks into overdrive around 2-4, where their learning ability is almost superhuman. They could easily learn two or more languages at the same time and hardly be confused by the time theyre fluent in speech, and theyll be bilingual for life.
Knowing how to read before I could remember was incredibly enabling for me academically at a young age. If your child were to understand the basics of music before she could remember, that would forever be a part of her, but she'll NEVER learn that by just listening - she has to DO. So you say you want your child to be the next hendrix - why not give her a step up with the tools available to her, and nudge her in the right direction when real instruments become age appropriate? Beyond the achievement factor, the prior knowledge of basic music theory will undoubtedly be invaluable to the learning process, as its one less simultaneous hurdle to overcome. Even if I didnt know what the bigger words meant, being able to pronounce them was one less thing to deal with when I had to actually learn their meanings.
To get realy analogous - as it's said, you have to learn to walk before you can run. You hope for her to be a world class sprinter. Do you really think that she'll benefit in the long run if you deprived her of a baby walker, because you wanted her to learn to walk the hard way?
You know, I've always sensed a little bit of resentment on the part of musicians when it comes to these games. Its almost not fair in some ways, that you had to put all this hard work in just to play a scale half decently, and now kids and adult douchebags come along and get to have all the fun for free without putting in the work. Realize that aside from a few really delusional douchebags, we're still all impressed by those who can play real instruments. We only get a small taste of that more fufilling enjoyment real musicians have, and we all know it. For many, thats enough - and I see nothing wrong with that. For a LOT of others, thats the spark that gets us to take the next step, but few us of would ever take it to the point where we'd start our own band.
But you already have one at home.
Teenagers want to do the opposite of their parents, young kids IDOLIZE their parents. Your fears of your daughter being satiated by RB and never wanting to touch a real instrument are completely unwarranted IMO - I'd bet a fairly large sum of money that the outcome would be the total polar opposite, and it would be that *absolute best thing* that you could do if your primary concern is fostering a love of music. Keep in mind that these games are difficulty appropriate for her very young age - unlike us adults or even a 6-year old, she will NOT get *instant* gratification from them, and if so, not for long if you encourage her to raise the difficulty. Theres no way in the world a child that understands the basics of music because she was able to learn that early, sees their parents playing music, and is surrounded by instruments is not going to pick up an instrument and not only enjoy it, but excel at it.
Although the OP has primarily dealt with RB, and even though I still that that until she's at least 3-4 she could barely play any of these games at all, I think that the upcoming guitar hero: world tour is even better as a learning tool. In RB, youre a semi-active participant in the song, but the music creator in GHWT goes one step further - using very basic toy instruments, genuine music can be created. Hardly the same as a real guitar, but here is where the fundamentals of music theory such as scales can make their way into her mind before she even understands the concept of learning and teaching. Picture this: Derek's on the *real* drums, Laura's on *real* rhythm guitar, and your little girl is hooked up to the TV, jamming along with you guys on a major C-scale before she even knows how to complete a full sentence...and it wont take long for her to figure the difference between harmony and disharmony, and that can hardly be a bad thing for her musical development in the long run.
The last thing I want to emphasize is that you have total control over the message with a young child. You decide whether she listens to avenged sevenfold or the doors. If one of you is singing, you get to decide whether that f-bomb gets dropped or not - it's not like she can read the lyrics. While there still remains something noble about learning the things hard way, I hardly think that principal is worth giving up on such an opportunity to foster enjoyment of music at a young age. The mere fact that she's a human being will ensure that she'll have have plenty of seemingly insurmountable challenges in her life - music doesnt necessarily need to be one of them. I'm sure she'll be fine either way, but when I have my own little ones, I look forward to my kid kicking my ass in rock band, and who knows whatll happen from there?
Sorry for the overly long essay. I would have posted earlier but I was too busy doing "hands-on research" for it with my GF. :P I'm the gamer, so I dig the challenge of the expert guitar - she's the singer, I guess those singing lessons she got while she was a little toddler paid off. :)
DerekWilson - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
i started reading but had to skim -- just wanted to make one point while i have a second.we never let our child use a baby walker --
they are banned in canada and docs all over recommend against them because they delay development of important motor skills. the child learns to walk /in a walker/ rather than learning to walk (Which isn't the same thing and learning the one can be detrimental to the other) -- balance and muscle development doesn't happen at a normal pace when a child uses a walker ... will it end the world? no. but will it stunt their development? yes.
that ends up being, in fact, an apt analogy for why we would want to delay exposure to rock band. because it might negatively impact her development. in the rock band case, we are unsure of how this may or may not happen, but the possibility seems plausible. and, again, since the cost/benefit analysis really doesn't come out in favor of taking the chance (rock band is just a game after all), i see no problem in not bringing it into our home.
i'll read the rest later when i've got time and respond.
BD2003 - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
well, baby walkers are banned not because they stunt mental growth, but because they make it much easier for a child to *physically* injure themselves. It's a pretty bad analogy in retrospect because unlike music, walking is not an optional skill - the child must learn it out of necessity, a love for walking is hardly a factor. I've never heard of a child that just plain failed to grasp the skill of walking, yet I've seen droves that never got music (myself included).You seem to focusing on it's potemtial detriments for the childs physical abilty to handle an instrument. - that's certainly up to some debate, but what I'm trying to get across is more about mental and cognitive ability. I hardly think rb can do much for her physically, but I'd find it a bit of a stretch to buy that it would stunt her development in any significant way.
DerekWilson - Friday, September 19, 2008 - link
have you ever played warcraft? starcraft? any RTS?i ask because there are some very fundamental similarities with raising a child.
in RTS games there is a tech tree that must be followed. you need to attain certain buildings or units before you can attain others. in child development, the child must attain certain skills that allow them to learn others.
walkers actually do stunt development and delay walking for children. this is a fact. without the skill of walking, they cannot learn other skills. at a young age, the growth and development of the brain is huge, and delays in learning certain skills (from the optimal potential that child has) could certainly negatively impact things.
you just can't win if you don't build things as fast as possible and in a certain order in an RTS. and i want our child to have the best chance she can at life, so we try and make sure she learns new skills as early as she is able.
yes, all children will learn to walk eventually. but if learning to walk later means that she doesn't learn another skill before she's done with this early developmental phase, then that effects the rest of her life.
look at languages -- these early years are the best for children to learn multiple languages (and we're dropping the ball on that cause it's hard and we are not multilingual). but if a child is exposed to another language when they are young, they will learn it much faster than when they are older. if the person needs to learn a language later in life, it often takes months to even get started and years to master.
we just want to make sure that we give her all the tools we can that she might need to succeed at whatever she puts her energy towards later in life.
dsquier - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
I appreciate Anandtech trying to broaden it's scope, as a long-time reader I'd prefer the site not group personal blog entries under the "More Reviews" section.No offense to Derek or the other staff, but when four of the last ten items under "More Reviews" are personal blog entries, it starts to muddy the waters between your excellent reviews and personal opinions.
Otherwise, keep up the good work!
DerekWilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
thanks for the input ... i wanted to see how some of these topics struck people though. the goal isn't to take anything away, just to build up. and for the most part i've gotten good responses to these blog posts.so i may post more frequently, but i also may skip moving some of them to the front page (which we have the ability to do).
crimson117 - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
I want my kid to be able to read complex novels like War & Peace. Therefore, I should never let them read Nancy Drew books because they'll get instant gratification from a dumbed-down reading experience and won't have any motivation to read harder stuff.... sounds silly, doesn't it?
Here's a better solution: I'm assuming your family can afford both video games and musical instruments. So, why not provide both things to your children, and then regulate their usage? It's not like you must let your kid loose in the living room and watch from around the corner hoping they'll sit down at the piano instead of the PS3. You can encourage them either way. You could even link the two - for each few songs in rock band, make them learn to play one of those songs on a real instrument. Then you get the best of both worlds - you experience the music in the game, you get the rhythm down, you learn the lyrics, and then you learn to transfer what you heard in the game to your own musical instrument. You've basically replaced the radio with the video game, but you're being introduced to music just the same.
Side note: If you don't want rock band because you worry that you'd be tempted to let your kid play it all day instead of learn an instrument, then I understand (it's like choosing not to keep junk food in the house). But don't approach this as if you have no influence on what your kid spends time on.
davewbrown - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
I don't know what is best for anyone else; but my 12 year old daughter has taken music in grades 6, 7 and now 8. She does percussion and has had her own set of drums since grade 6. She liked playing the drums but never took a big interest in them outside of practicing for her music class. Then, I got her Rock Band and now Rock Band 2. Once she got into Rock Band she started taking more interest in her real drums. Now she plays them a whole lot more. She plays the songs on Rock Band (most of them in expert mode) and then on her real drums with just the music. She also plays the Rock Band guitar and sings (mostly hard mode and some expert). She has friends over to play the game all the time. As well, my 8 year old son and I join her in the game (on easy mode) and have a lot of family fun. For me, Rock Band has just increased the interest in music for the whole family. We even went to look at real guitars now. Best of all, if you want to bond with you’re kids, grab Rock Band and play their music with them.Btw, I’ve been playing video games since the 70’s (like pong) and games like this (and many on our WII) get the kids up and moving instead of just pressing a few buttons. That said; get them outdoors as well.
DerekWilson - Friday, September 19, 2008 - link
thats an awesome story -- thanks for sharing ...i do think that your daughters interest in drums initially may have had an impact on how she used rock band as a tool ... also drums are much closer to the real thing than the guitar.
but i do appreciate you sharing. I can't wait til my kids get old enough that we can play video games as a family :-)
Davelo - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
I have always had issues with the demonic images in these games. I don't understand why all that satanist stuff is necessary in these games. How does it enhance the game play? It almost seems like an effort to work on the subconscious minds of the kids playing.Finally - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
a KISS is a KISSBut you are right... why not dump the child in a tank of feel-good, so by the time she is allowed to go out for the 1st time in her life (= 20 years+), she falls flat over.
DerekWilson - Friday, September 19, 2008 - link
KISS ... heh ...also, i if i wanted her to be dumped in a tank of feel good, i think we'd lean more toward letting her do the things that get her easy rewards without a second thought ... right?
DerekWilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
in rock band? really?WebMasterP - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
I understand your wife's intentions and thought process, but she's wrong and right. She's right in that what she proposes would happen, *could* happen. She's wrong to think that's the likely outcome. Video games are virtual and never as fun or rewarding as the real thing.My brother in law (very young "whoops" from my in-laws) started playing guitar hero very young, I think 6. He played it a lot. When he first started, he was terrible. I couldn't stand to watch or listen to him play. He had no hand eye-coordination. Now, he's almost as good as me. However, MOST IMPORTANTLY, he now plays the real guitar BECAUSE OF THE GAME. He takes lessons and rocks out to AC/DC and the like (he's in the 3rd grade this year). The game peaked his interest and he had a support system around him to act upon it. Be that support system, don't be the filter. Kids are much smarter than you give them credit for, you just have to explain things to them..
I race cars, both in autocross and at the track. If you talk to people at the track, there are quite a few who are there because their interest was found in a video game.
crimson117 - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
"Be that support system, don't be the filter."Thank you! Very succinct, very true.
Also, very much the difference between "you're just not allowed to" and "you shouldn't for these reasons".
You can't filter out everything from your kids. But you can teach them to react to everything in a beneficial way.
DerekWilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
i essentially agree with this, and i think laura does too ...but at what point do children become capable of understanding "you shouldn't for these reasons"? ... honestly, when we correct her, we always tell her why even knowing she doesn't understand so that she won't miss it when she finally does make the connection. but it is harder to expose her to something and say "you should look at it this way" when she has no ability to conceptualize like that. yet.
certainly when she's a couple years older the conversation will be very different. if she learns what rock band is and expresses an interest in playing it, i don't think either of us would have a problem with her playing it (but of course we would explain to her the limitations of the game and the advantages of real instruments while we both played along side her).
crimson117 - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
In the end, the parents know best what's right for their kid at whatever age / level of development they happen to be at.I think she's lucky to have parents that think this stuff through :)
HavocX - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
That is quite a sweeping statement. Do you really claim that it is impossible for someone else to know better what is right for a child? As long as you do not define "right" as whatever the parents thinks is best, however damaging it may be for the child.DerekWilson - Friday, September 19, 2008 - link
i think what he meant was that parents are in a better position to know what is best for their own children because of the amount of time they spend with them and love they have for them (and i think also because they know their family history and the tendencies of their family members).yeah, some parents are stupid. also some parents make bad decisions for their kids.
but no one else has as much potential to understand and make the right decisions as the parents. i think when you become a parent you learn this pretty quickly. parents need to be the ones who chose what is right for their children (within the bounds of the law anyway).
Veng - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
Hey guys,I will admit that this is my first post here but I felt a bit compelled to comment.
Rock Band 2 is a game. It's made to be fun and to allow people with little-to-no musical skill have fun being part of the musical process. With that in mind, it's also a way to get people who are ambivalent about music to become more interested in the process of making music and to appreciate it more.
Harmonix is a company comprised of almost entirely of professional and amateur musicians - whether it be rock, hip-hop, classical, or anything in between. And the things that compelled them as kids to take up an instrument are part of the game. The idea of creating something for people to enjoy or to express yourself, like the people who provided music for the game, is readily apparent and translates very easily.
I guess I can color this even more by saying that I work at Harmonix (though this is not at ALL an official response, this one guy's opinion) but I've seen so many people who have worked on or played our games take up an instrument where they thought they would never have the ability to do so before.
The argument in regards to doing dishes is a flawed one in that no GAME is going to make you grind through hours of "boring" practice in order to have fun (unless it's an MMO). But to think that this "instant gratification" will lessen your daughter's potential love for learning an instrument is doing her a disservice.
Would you ban any and all sports game for fear that she will never decide to be active, knowing that all that hardwork and exercise is ahead of her when she could just pop in Madden 2015 and be Tom Brady? Or that playing The Sims is off-limits because who would want to go through the rigmarole of actually living?
At two years old, I don't think Rock Band would be quite the game for her anyway (physical limitations of having small hands and being smaller than the instruments). But with a "no fail" mode, she can engage in the game and learn that "playing" music is fun. Or perhaps watch her parents have a blast playing in a "band," forming associations that music can be more than a passive listening experience.
Choppedliver - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
Anandtech = PCTech( Politically Correct )
webstorm1 - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
One thing that hasn't been mentioned... Playing the drums of Rock Band on expert, is extremely simlar to playing a real set of drums. Personally, I don't have the experience to back that up, but I've heard this more than once and heard quite a few anecdotal stories of drummers sitting down with the game and starting on expert. The only issue is that the timing is not the same. When I played the first time it was with my cousin, who fits the story exactly. He's a drummer and was able to start on the hardest level.Now, beleiving that a 2 year old may not differentiate between a real guitar and guitar controller seems possible, but I'd like a psyhcologist to chime in before I make that huge of a leap. I've played on the computer since Zork on a monochrome screen and every console ever made including coleco and intellivision as well as the Turbografix 16, 3do, and Neo Geo, and atari Jaguar. I was born in 77, and have had quite a few more experiences with gaming than anyone younger ever possibly could. The only difference between my experiences then, and your children's now is the look of the controller and the games. I played sports all through high school and junior high for the school and backyard sports as well so my love of actually playing hockey, tennis, football, and soccer wasn't diminished by the availablility of fake versions.
You are assuming that a 2 year old can't tell the difference between a guitar shaped controller with buttons and a strum bar and a real guitar with strings and a resonance chamber. There are many reason to limit video games, but the reason you've described just seems as far fetched as not swimming after eating to avoid cramps. I seriously have to call shannanigans on you for that =) You have a lot of other really good ideas about limiting the exposure to other things, and I agree with you. But I would be hard pressed to believe that even a 2 year old can't tell the difference between a game on a 2d television and holding a guitar and feeling the strings and the weight of the guitar as well as hearing the sound it makes when you strum the strings. If a young child pets a bunny and learns that it's a bunny, then pets a cat they will call it a bunny. Right up until you show them the difference between a kitty and bunny where the fur puts it in one category, then there are sub categories. Why would a guitar shaped controller be any diffeerent, (even though there are no similarities between the game and the real guitar other than general shape)?
Also FattySharp nailed it, imo.
DerekWilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
yeah, the drums on expert are really similar to playing an electric drum kit. there are things you don't learn like how to use the bounce of the drum head or the kick pedal to assist you, and "reading" rock band music is nothing like reading real drum music (or standard musical notation for any instrument for that matter).so there's that
Laura Wilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
i agree with fattysharp, too, we should be careful of our reasons for censoring our children.as for not knowing the difference between guitars and rock band 2 controllers, you are right that there's no concern she'll confuse an acoustic. but there are some electric guitars out there that don't look so different... (it is kind of moot, though, because people learn guitar most often by starting with acoustic).
Fattysharp - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
Censorship based on age is a good thing in my opinion. If you feel the content is inappropiate for a 2 year, then not exposing them to it is a good thing.Censorship based on limiting influencing factors to push, force or "encourage" anyone at any age down a particular path because that is what you want them to do is not so much a good thing. It will often result in the opposit result that you are aiming for.
As a parent you need to ask yourself "Am I making this choice based on what I want, or based on what is best for the child?" Parents too often place their own desire on children. Both of your answers are based on what you want, not want your daughter wants.
While it will not matter much this time, it will matter later. Just remember to ask yourself if it is for your sake or your childs, and things should turn out fine.
After re-reading this I feel I am speaking from the holier then you pedestil. That is not my intent, i just feel that the hardest choices we make, are when they are for other people.
BD2003 - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
I think Laura missed the point exactly when it comes to this:"I'm not afraid my daughter wouldn't want to pick up a guitar once she sees how fun it is to play Rock Band 2. But I would be amazed if she persevered with the real thing in the same way after experiencing the misleading rewards of the video game."
That is all contingent on her playing eternally in "easy mode". I'm sure many have seen it before, but youtube is absolutely filled with videos of little kids absolutely destroying the hardest songs on expert mode - why are these videos so popular? Not because we are in awe of their ability to play a video game, but because we are in awe that children who are barely past speech are able to accomplish feats that most of us consider impossible and have given up even trying on a long time ago. The comments on these posts are littered with amazement by people of all ages.
The important lesson these children learn is not that video games are more fun than real life, but that they can do ANYTHING with practice and perseverance, including things that adults simply can't or won't do because its "too hard".
They say genius is "1% inspiration, 99% perspiration". If your child was to pick up a real guitar, the real key to success would be a belief that no matter how difficult this may seem now, the more I practice, the better I will get. No one will be able to tell them they don't have the "talent", because they already know the answer to the question "Can I do this?"
DerekWilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
just to point something else out that people need to consider ...mastering real instruments in infinitely harder than mastering rock band on expert.
playing rock band is, at once, easier to play and harder to master if you have already learned an instrument (because you'll always want to play the song the way you learned it).
kids who think, because they tried to a certain extent and mastered rock band on expert, that they just as easily master guitar will be very discouraged. it will take a lot more effort and a lot more dedication with a lot less fun and a lot less reward -- until they cross certain thresholds of drudge work that is.
BD2003 - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
I agree with you that it can be technically difficult - and even though I never had the time to follow through with mastering the real guitar, I stopped not out of discouragement that it was difficult, but out of a lack of time. The guitar is an incredibly frustrating instrument to learn in the first place. But there was never a time when I thought to myself "I can't do this", and mastering difficult video games (long before RB/GH existed) was one of the things that helped me understand that. I believe that's where the parents can step in, to bridge that gap - especially in a household full of musicians, playing a real instrument along with you guys will I'm sure be an incredibly rewarding AND encouraging experience.BD2003 - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
An example:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yEjyuw42YY">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yEjyuw42YY
Look at the smile on his face. Its as if he's mocking us, because its just so easy to him. He's so good that he doesnt need to look at the screen.
Then look at this "kid", probably somewhere in high school.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NarTQm7tgjY">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NarTQm7tgjY
He fails, and what does he do? Blame the guitar, smash it, and run away.
I guarantee you that first kid isnt going to blame something else - he's going to keep at it until he gets it right, and then mock the rest of us - not because he has some innate skill, but because he has the perseverance that we dont.
Laura Wilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
it is a wonderful thing to see a small child ripping through something an adult had no patience for, and that is definitely an image that happens frequently because of the human brain's sharper learning capabilities at the early ages. but imagine how awesome it would be if that kid spent all that time working at a real guitar instead. he'd be on his way to jimi hendrix levels of prodigy fame.my daughter is already showing interest in not only hearing guitar but also playing it. the very first time she sat with one in her lap (full sized, no less) she wrapped her left hand around the neck and strummed at the strings with her right. at 1.5 years old, i considered that pretty impressive. her dad is a drummer and her mom is a pianist, but both of us have been in bands playing our own and other instruments, including guitar and bass. we put a lot of value in those experiences, too.
i'm a victim of what i hope to shield my child from in many ways. most of my creative outlets are fulfilled by video games, not supplemented. i have paintings i haven't gotten back to in years, but if i haven't completed a game of black and white i have trouble sleeping at night. derek's different, he enjoys the qualities of the game and even celebrates the levels of skill required to create it. but i think people can have a predisposition to one or the other. my whole family, (brothers sisters and parents), has issues with dependencies - addictive personalities, so to speak - and that can manifest in any form, including video game addictions. it's possible i'll pass that trait to my kids, so i'd like to give them a fighting chance.
don't get me wrong, i don't intend to censor what my kids can play as far as video games go for their whole lives, but i'd like to let them explore the more difficult, real, rewarding things before turning them into fun games to pass time. perhaps i project too much... but i continue to lean on the side of caution, as more of the mistakes made by parents around me seem to have been caused by complacency. (yes, i know overprotection is just as bad, but there IS a happy middle ground and i'm searching for it).
BD2003 - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
True, there may be a certain element of the child being able to learn certain things quicker, but I don't believe that is what the core of his success is. The point I'm trying to make transcends the guitar and video games.From my own experiences, a story that had to be told back to me because I was too young to remember: When I was 4 years old, I saw my dad's old chess pieces, and he showed me how to play. He obviously took it easy on me, but I sensed even then that he was letting me win, and I told him to play fair. He naturally whooped my ass, over and over. I practically went away crying, upset that I'd never be able to beat him.
The next day, I found a brand new copy of the game "battle chess" waiting for me. Sure, I was disappointed it wasnt mega man, but he just told me he found it on the street and thought I would like it. I played that game to death - for a few weeks, he wasnt "in the mood" to play "real" chess, but he must have been watching me play out of the corner of his eye, and when he was eventually "in the mood", he told me that was one of the toughest games of chess he ever played - he won, but that winning streak didnt last more than a day or two. It was naturally a great bonding experience as well.
Apparently, a bit after that, I saw my dad reading, and I told him that I bet I could "beat him at reading". He taught me the alphabet, left a few books lying around, and you can imagine the rest. To this day, I dont have any recollection of ever learning how to read - it was just something I knew how to do by the time I could remember. I do remember the way at 6 that my 1st grade teacher scolded me for not doing my assignment because I read "run dog run" in 2 seconds flat. I read the entire 1st grade library in about 30 minutes to her, one book after another, and back then I didnt understand wtf the big deal was. They told my parents I was a genius apparently.
Every time I struggled in a class, job, or with anything else, and I talked to him about it, he'd bring up battle chess and reading, reminding me that if I could be as good as things as adults while still a child by just doing things, that naturally I could do anything. I've always kept those experiences in the back of my mind, and I know it's enabled me to accomplish things that I otherwise would have given up on.
Obviously music is something very important to your family, but I believe that you could use the game to enable the experience rather than water it down. I can certainly understand the trepidation with giving a child rock band, with the fear it would make it seem so easy. But you have the power to ensure that what the child accomplishes in the game is translated to the real world, to the real guitar. A 2 year old *can* play RB, but can hardly handle a real guitar for a few more years. She can learn very basic skills such as rhythm as timing, and more importantly, you can all play *together as a family*. Let her get better than you at the game, and absolutely do not forget to raise the difficulty of the game as it becomes too easy. Make sure she realizes the reason she's better is not because its "just a game", but because she practiced. The experience can either be one of achievement over adversity (while having fun together, no less), rather than taking the easy way out.
I'm sure with that experience of accomplishment, she'd not only be very eager to play the real guitar, but would have a leg up not only with basic skills, but with the knowledge that she can do it with practice. She's lucky to have people around that can help her learn a real instrument very effectively. You also have the rather unique situation that you're all musicians, so not only can you play the game together, but you can play real music together, when she's ready.
I dont know how, who or what inspired the two of you to pick up instruments, but I dont think it'd be crazy to assume the encouragement of your parents had something to do with it. Especially at 2, the game is what you allow it to be, and you have the ability to make it a positive rather than negative experience.
Laura Wilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
i think you make a very good point. it's possible she would master the game better than her parents and be so impressed with how it feels that seeing her parents pick up real instruments will give her a desire to master them better than us as well. the drive to succeed is often made sharper by knowing how it feels to succeed already. this is one of the first points that's giving me pause about my opinion. i appreciate your comment!BD2003 - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
you know, now that I've had some more time to think about it, I feel there's quite a bit more I can add to the discussion, but suffice it to say that articulating it all would beore than a little difficult on my iPhone at work. I think your fears of instant gratification are certainly justified, but you'd be missin out on an incredible opportunity if you let that fear (which you can do something about) prevent you from exploiting the many positives that you may be overlookk g which can come from this game in the context of your daughter and family. If you can deal with any more of my rambling, I'll post back later tonight. :)Laura Wilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
post away -- i also appreciate the chess story. that's a very good point i hadn't as of yet considered.thanks.
DerekWilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
oops ... that was supposed to be me above -- i sat down at lauras computer and didn't realize she was logged in instead of me ...a5cent - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
If Laura has absolutely no interest in joining the navy, then her preference to play counterstrike is obvious, but the analogy is useless. The analogy only makes sense if Laura has a serious desire to join the navy, but hasn't because counterstrike provides enough of the experience and gratification that sparked her interest in the first place.That counterstrike could provide enough of the experience and gratification of actually being in the navy is something I find very hard to believe. I would rather doubt she ever really wanted to be in the navy anyway (or learn how to play a guitar). However, Laura seems like a smart person so I'd have to take her word for it. Although I was of Derek's opinion before reading this article, I'd have to accept Laura's point of view now, although I would ask her to reconsider the validity of the examples she provides.
As an example, I don't think the dish washing analogy applies at all. Dish washing is too much of a mundane, daily chore that anyone would feel much gratification from having acquired the skill. Everyone would prefer the "magic crud-busting liquid" and nothing would be lost because of it. Or have you ever heard of someone refusing to use the dishwasher because they want to hone their manual dish washing skills?
DerekWilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
i prefer to wash dishes by hand :-)laura complains because i waste too many paper towels and take way too long. she makes me use the dishwasher ...
actually, i think her point with that analogy is apt considering the tediousness of really learning to play. learning music and musical instruments is hard. and it takes a long time and lots of practice.
sure, there is no magical moment when people will start to crowd around and watch you wash dishes and you probably won't enjoy the clean utensils as much as you will enjoy the moment when you can actually play a song all the way through without screwing up for the first time. but many people who just dream of the gratification of having learned an instrument will give up on the learning because it's not really worth it.
there's got to be something more there -- some love for the music itself or for the instrument ... or even a parent requiring a kid to keep going to lessons every week whether they want to or not. and 9 times out of 10 the kid thanks the parent for it later, but i don't think laura and i are going to want to go that route.
the point is -- how will she get over the hurdle of learning a real instrument if she decides that playing the game is easier than learning, more fun than learning, more satisfying than learning, etc ... it's not about the playing of the real instrument -- that easily has value over rock band ... its about motivation for learning and a desire not to make it harder on her to find that.
JWalk - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
That is the biggest mistake you guys are making. That plastic guitar-shaped controller is not a substitute for a real guitar. It is a unique way to interact with a rhythm-based video game. Your daughter will be smart enough to know the difference when the time comes.My honest guess would be that your wife is more annoyed by the idea of plastic "instruments" laying all over your living room, and the "good for our daughter" argument gets her to her goal faster and easier. ;)
wvh - Saturday, September 20, 2008 - link
I'm a guitarist. People (adults, mind you) challenge me all the time to play this game, because it somehow validates their illusions to win from a real musician, as if they too could get up on a stage and entertain an audience without a zillion hours of practice.People really like the ambiguity. While no sane person confuses this game or its controller with the real thing, I do think – after seeing how important people think it is to win from me – that there is some substitution going on, and that a lot of children might not understand the amount hard work and dedication required nor learn to persist the way that is needed to really master an instrument or any art or sport.
It would all depend on what other activities children do in their life, ofcourse. If you're a shitty parent and all that your kids do is watching TV and playing computer games, they will miss some skills and probably never really find out other activities to do or learn to invest real time and effort into something.
But this game is popular exactly because people confuse it with the real thing, if not the controller itself, perhaps the ability to learn to play a guitar solo in a day or so in front of cheering crowds... Learning to play an instrument is also learning to persist and to know that for many years you won't be playing anything worth cheering to. That, in my eyes, is the danger of this sort of simulation. Children need to learn to persist at art, music, sports of whatever, and not go to school the next day and announce that they "cleared level 7 in two hours".
While their daughter will understand the difference between a controller and a real guitar, she might not learn that really developing a skill takes a lot more than a few hours, and be conditioned to always seek instant gratification. And that generally breeds loosers…
(Not because of one game, obviously, but in the bigger picture)
DerekWilson - Friday, September 19, 2008 - link
you don't know laura very well -- she speaks her mind fairly freely. if that were what was going on she'd tell me exactly that :-)devolutionist - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
I agree with your wife, with basically the same line of reasoning. Rock Band vs. guitar playing is not the same as Grand Turismo vs. driving.With racing games you can be an expert driver on the console, but it's still almost instantly exhilarating learning how to actually drive.
With instrument games, kids who are excellent at them are doused with a cold bucket of reality the first time they play a real guitar. Currently, the mecahanics of the game are simply nothing like the real thing. I've seen this to a degree with my own kids who have real guitars as well as Guitar Hero laying around the house. They still show interest in playing "Daddy's Guitar" but are extremely intimidated by it - to a degree I don't recall me or my friends ever being.
devolutionist - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
Also - I definitely disagree with you on the language issue. My kids listen to music with bad words, but we've had conversations about the difference in listening to them and using them on their own, and I've never had a problem with them using bad language. Personally, I think it's a matter of respect. Respect for those around you, and respect for our language to use it appropriately. Instead of enriching their vocabulary with curse words, enrich them with proper alternative words. They'll still curse when they grow up, but at least they'll have a proper set of tools at their disposal to use if they need them.Narynan - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
from someone who has played in a band, I can tell you this laura. Encourage your daughters musical talents however you can. This video game is NOT going to negatively effect them, and you truly are sheltered if you think that is the case. I mean if you even know what counterstrike is, then you have enough of a mind to be able to know a thing or two about games. But really, thats like saying that a little child playing a 7 note keyboard, will cause the key to be a brain dead minion... its just not connected with reality.It will teach rythem. Timing. Finger placing. And dont forget, if you fail, just like in high school, you will get booed off the stage. Take the good with the bad here and realize IT IS A VIDEO GAME.
DerekWilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
laura and i have both played in multiple bands. and we'll certainly encourage her in music, but the first goal is to continue to put musical instruments (real ones) in her life. she already loves to bang on the piano and hit the drums (she is even careful to hold the sticks at the right end) and pluck the strings on the guitar.rhythm and timing sure. but she can also get that from sitting on daddy's lap while he plays the drums or by copying patterns i play on the djembe or watching mommy play piano and then trying to hit keys with her.
the issue is more along the lines of: will she see the rock band instruments as she already sees these instruments? certainly they are not the same thing, but if she sees them as the same thing, would that be a bad thing? do we wait to expose her to these things until she can comprehend the difference?
HavocX - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
You seem to be very focused on making her interested in music. Are you sure you are doing this for her sake and not for your own?Laura Wilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
it isn't that i want her to be interested in music because i am interested in her being interested in music ...i am interested in her being motivated to fulfill her self in ways that would be most gratifying to her based on her own wants and needs.
at 2 she is not fit to make those decisions. she is subject in a large way to her environment. our job is to try and figure out what she likes wants and needs and encourage and nurture those things. if we were to simply encourage her in the things we liked then we would be doing her a huge disservice. this is not our motivation.
Laura Wilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
she has already shown that she is interested in music. derek and i are figuring out how to nurture this. we'd be dropping the ball if we stifled it after "guitar" was one of the first words she learned and she dances most violently to the guitar-based songs.HavocX - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
And how is the presence of alternatives stifling? Do you also limit acess to sports and books? You should of course encourage her interest in guitars, but shielding her from other potential interests is not encouragment.If "Rock Band" was her first words, would you hide your real guitars from her?
VERTIGGO - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
"either go join the army or play a round of Counterstrike"please, you mean the Navy. never seen an Army SEAL.
HavocX - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
I think you are both wrong by not asking the relevant question:Why is it important for you that your daughter plays real guitar instead of Rock Band?
She has an interest in music. It might be best satisfied by just listening to it, by playing rock band or by learning a real instrument. It might be some combination of the three. Why have you both decided that one of them is "bad" if it means that she will prefer it over another?
If she is interested enough she will learn to play an instrument, with or without Rock Band. The game might even help her reach the required level of interest. But it is also possible that she feels that Rock Band gives her all the music experience she needs without the hard work of a real instrument. That is not a problem!
Would you want that Mario Golf didn't exist just to force you out on the course? Would you prefer a world without Counter Strike because it might have increased the chances of you joining the army? Do you blame Civilization that you will never become a great leader of an empire?
You probably don't but yet both of you want to protect your daughter from the simulation if it decreases her need for the real thing. That is wrong. The real thing will always be the only thing good enough for some people but most of us feels that the simulation is better by gives us an experience good enough for much less work. If Rock Band prevents your daughter from becoming a musician she might use the time she saves to be a great painter or do excel in sports. Or she might just want to sample a lot of stuff instead of devote a lot of time to one interest.
I would have understood you if this was a matter of learning something essential for making a living or doing something that is necessary to stay in physical shape, but playing music or computer games is all about self fulfillment. What you are doing here is limiting her options to increase the chances that she will choose a method for self fulfillment that you find superior. You need to drop that notion. Music isn't better or worse than video games. Doing it the hard way is not better or worse than doing it the easy way. The best way is what makes her happy, not what makes you happy!
HavocX - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
I realize that you are a lot closer to my opinion than your wife is, but you still seems to feel a need to explain why Rock Band will not decrease her interest in real instruments, and that video games in general will not replace "real" interests. I would advice you to reconsider that and focus on the last part you wrote:"She will pick doing the things that she likes doing based on the things we expose her to. As long as she has access to varied experiences, she'll end up being the person she is supposed to be. If that's a rocker playing guitar, that's fine. If she ends up being a professional video game player, I think that's fine too. And I don't think they'll ever be mutually exclusive activities."
JarredWalton - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
As a "veteran" parent of a nearly-six daughter, I'm surprised Derek and Laura are even worrying about this. Two years old? Unless there's something objectionable in the Rock Band content (that can't simply be avoided by not playing certain songs), I can't see it as a real concern. I think you two might simply be overthinking something that isn't a big deal.When she's maybe seven or eight and can actually play Rock Band, then you can start to worry about whether or not she's becoming too focused on video games. At two, though, I think Rock Band - or just about any video game - is a huge step up from shows like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuiynIn-g9s">Teletubbies or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ-nif4rXGs">Boobah! [shudder] My daughter saw Boobah come on once (after some other show like Dora the Explorer) and she loved it... talk about brain candy that will teach your kid nothing useful! But maybe I'm being overly harsh; I'm sure there's some child research showing it helps stimulate brain development in 1 year olds. (Problem is my daughter was three or four at the time.)
DerekWilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
the issue is that anything and everything a child is exposed to contributes to their development in ways that even developmental psychology is not able to fully comprehend or explain. i agree that there may be an impact from showing her that i can push buttons on a guitar like controller and get a response from the video game. but i don't know what that impact could or even might be.i'm grateful that laura can think in terms of worst case scenarios, because i'm not that way at all. sure, sometimes we get into cost / benefit arguments over things, but this isn't really one where any potential benefit that i can see would out weight the potential issues laura sees.
HavocX - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
Considering worst case scenarios are only productive when planning ahead about what to do *if* they happen.When reducing risks you must think in terms of (risk of event happening) * (negative impact of event) compared to cost of preventing the risk. Many parent's says that you cannot be that rational when it comes to your children but that is exactly the situation where you need to be rational. Why increase the total risk you children is exposed to because it feel better for you. That is selfish.
But the main question remains unanswered: Why does she (and you?) find it so important that your daughter plays an instument when she grows up?
Laura Wilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
because playing music gives us both so much joy, and she has already shown the early signs of that joy, as well.HavocX - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
Yes, it brings *you* joy. And if it does the same for her she will do it. But if she gets more joy from Rock Band, why should she play guitar? Not everyone wants to play an instrument. She is not you.Laura Wilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
she isn't exposed to either enough to know if she can get "more" enoyment from rock band or the real thing. that's a big part of my point. you're right, she isn't me, but how much sense does it make to avoid giving her access to a joy that has been part of her family tree for longer than the current living members? hey, i like video games, too. and eating. maybe i should avoid passing those joys on, as well.HavocX - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
Noone have suggested that you should avoid giving her access to instruments or present them in a positive way. But you have decided to avoid giving her acess to Rock Band out of fear that she will choose it instead.What would you tell a parent that decided to not expose their child to music instuments because they fear it could become more interested in them than their favorite recreation Rock Band?
Beenthere - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
Ask the military why they use video war games to de-sensitize recruits. Denial does not change the negative impact that many video games have on the young or those who believe themselves to be adults.We live in an age when most any inappropriate behavior can be rationalized - which is quite unfortunate. One needs to look no further than the internet or prime time TV to see a complete loss of good judgment and personal values. In the quest for financial greed, the social demise of America will be rationalized by all who have a vested interest and/or poor judgment.
daar - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
...and yet, the US military has the largest amount of young recruitscrying about the hell of war. Killing someone in a game and someone in real life will never feel the same, what a load of bull.
Pottervilla - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
Quote: "Any word we use has a meaning and can be effective in conveying an idea."Do you really just use 'certain words' to convey an idea (or even should you? Do you really want people to know how you feel when you use these words? Is it edifying?), or are you actually frustrated/angry and want/need to take it out on someone/something? IMHO, the use of expletives displays a breach in self control, or in broader language, a breach in character. I will admit, I haven't been able to completely eliminate them from my own conversation(half the time I'm talking to my computer :))but it's one of my goals.
I have nothing against all these off topic posts--as long as they don't take away from your reviews and other content. And please, (to all the editors at AnandTech) lay of the keyword dropping! If you keep this up, we will start shunning anything that says 'women' on it--legit or not.
Remember, you asked...
DerekWilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
actually, i do just use "certain words" to convey an idea. most of the time i don't use them from a place of frustration or anger.the use of expletives is not a breach in self control -- a breach in self control is a breach in self control. i can use any of a number of "regular" words to convey ideas much more offensive than any expletive. i can do this from a place of frustration and anger in order to take it out on something or someone. if you want to be edifying for yourself, it is your own motivation and state of mind rather than the words you use that will or will not build you up. if you want to be edifying to others than the words you use may or may not have any impact on them, depending on who they are and how they feel. you can tear people down without expletives and you won't necessarily tear people down even when you do use them. being polite and considerate are two different things -- you can be considerate without being polite depending on the company you keep, but being polite is a way to assist in conveying consideration to people you do not know and are therefore unable to fully consider.
it really isn't about the words ... its about the impact the word has on others and the intent of the person saying the word. and that can be any words at all.
Up2L8 - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
I have a 3 year old and a soon to be 2 year old.I have RB1 and just got RB2. I have a couple of games for the 360, but that is what I play the most by far.
But seriously... what is wrong with waiting till the kids go to bed and play? Do you think they are going to pick up on how easy fake instruments are to play while sleeping?
And even if they do get into the game it will probably only stimulate interest in the real thing later in life when they can take advantage of their increased hand-eye-ear coordination.
DerekWilson - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
man ... my wife and i just about pass out every night when our kid goes to bed. she's exhausting!but, yeah, that's not a bad idea. the only other issue is that my wife doesn't want the rock band kit cluttering up the living room ... and she doesn't think i can be organized enough to put it away every time i finish playing (and she'd be right about that)
:-)
R4F43LZiN - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
Thats really a good question.My personal experience is really different from both your opinions. My father died when I had 5 years old, and when I was 10 I got my first computer. In my family, I'm the only pc enthusiast. My mother never censored me with anything. She always tough that RPGs are evil, and stuff like that, but I pretty much experienced it all when it comes to games and movies... I think that this experience made me a more open-minded person. If my mom had to pick everything that I play or see, how would I be a responsible grow up?
Of course, the situation with your kid is waaaaay different. She's really to young to decide for herself. But hey, in some point, we all are. That brings us to another question: who the hell are we to say what other people can't do?
Ok, I've gone a little to far here. I do agree that parents have to choose for their kids until a certain age. But then, they should help them to decide, not choose for them. It worked for me. Can it work for other people? Good question. Like the one you left for us. WHo says life has to be easy? ;)
Xavitar - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
Both you and your wife raise interesting points, Derek.I think video games raise interest in other activities in children rather than quench desires. In the same way that books and movies fill kids with awe and make them want to experience the real thing, so too can video games. I don't think a kid is any more likely to think to themselves, Why become an astronaut when I can just sit on my couch and play Asteroids? than they are likely to think, Why become an astronaut when I can just look at this book of photographs that NASA published? They just want to become the astronaut.
It is a matter of providing children with an avenue of pursuit and shielding them from the negative outlook of most adults who have lived through the death of their own ambitions. Of course, it isn't quite so simple as that, but at the crux of it I really believe that video games, movies and media of all sorts are being scapegoated for an overall lack of guidance by adults. If you provide a rich and fulfilling experience for your daughter, I would have no fear that she will lack ambition. Ambition is the one thing that children possess in droves, and it is only by example that they learn to give it up. I say let her play Rock Band 2, and as she gets older, make sure she is surrounded by interesting, ambitious and driven people. People, after all, are a product of their environments, not the games they play -- unless the games become the environment, which is entirely in your hands as parents.
Thanks for the interesting read. That was the last thing I expected to see on the front page of Anandtech!
Now how about some more Lucid Hydra 100 goodness? Go twist their arm, we need independent tests! I hear they are close to (or beyond) final silicon!? I wonder how long until they have beta drivers available for public consumption... Mmmmmm, consumption.
Christoph Katzer - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
I think there are far more important things in life than games anyway...And please guys don't start crying that AT brings some different stuff from time to time. Just don't read it.
Choppedliver - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
In that case, let's start publishing articles like the ones you see in cosmopolitan."How about 100 ways to make your computer geek happy in bed"
Considering Derek's last crappy article about female readership, I wouldn't be surprised.
JEDIYoda - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
Usually it`s the kids who take offense to what Derek has to say!They say there is nothing like the internet when it comes to being what you want to be even if you are only a 13 year old kid trying to be an adult!! lol
DerekWilson - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
it wasn't an article, it was a blog post :-)SoCalBoomer - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
What's the difference, honestly, any more?Blog posts are given the same credence as an article, and are listed in the same area and given prime coverage on the front page. . . is that not what an article is?
EricMartello - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
AnandTech is now a parenting advice website? Since when? Anyway, you have a 2 year old kid and you're wondering if "Rock Band 2" is appropriate for her...probably not. Your wife is right on this one. As a rule of thumb, don't subject your kids to words you don't want her to know the definition of in true detail. If you think it's OK for her to use the fcuk at 2 years old, you should be just as comfortable explaining to her what that word means in the type of detail you'd find on a porn site. Would you do that? I doubt it. It's a slippery slope so even if you think words like sh!t are OK, they often lead to other words that may not be OK.whatthehey - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
I have no problem with different content on Anandtech. What I'm surprised at is the reasons for not getting Guitar Hero 2. Music is nice and all, but to become really good takes a ton of effort, which is why most people never go far. I seriously doubt a game is going to make it any less likely that a kid pursues music as a career.Language and content on the other hand would be a huge concern for me, especially for a young child. My (ex) dropped the f-bomb a lot, and I can't tell you how upset I was when my 3 year old started saying it. She had no idea what it meant, but she heard mommy yell it so it was "fine" to repeat. Kids are sponges and parrots: they'll learn precisely the things you don't want them to know (by watching their parents), and they will repeat anything they hear.
In my kid's case, she's hopefully more likely to repeat sports or computer terms now rather than to quote lyrics from the latest horrible RIAA promoted album.
You know, for that matter I really hope my kid never has a desire to go into the music industry. If she wants to do choir or band, (or opera or orchestra or musicals) that's cool, but wanting your child to become a rock star is akin to wanting your kid to become a movie star. Have you seen the way those people behave? No thanks! Keep your money; I'll stick to my morals. It's unfortunate we don't have more people with morals these days. It's also a shame that more parents don't actually take some time to think a bit about what it is their children are learning from TV/computers/friends.
DerekWilson - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
i don't want my kid to be a rock star -- i don't even want her to want to be a rock star ...but playing guitar is completely different, and i actually made a good bit of cash during college playing out around town. not a rock star by a long shot, but its a very satisfying skill to have.
i understand the argument to not want to take away a drive or desire to spend the time learning.
evilspoons - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
As a 23 year old, I have been playing videogames from a monochrome XT and Intellivision up to the latest and greatest gaming PCs and the Xbox 360/PS3/etc.I have always loved driving games. I remember the first "Need for Speed" game demo (back when it was from Road & Track Magazine and handled fairly realistically) and I played it about a million times. I believe that these games led me into my current interest in cars and love for driving. I despise a vehicle that takes control away from me (automatic transmission, for example) and enjoy driving in any form. I don't feel the urge to become a race car driver, but if I had the disposable income I'm sure I'd start rallying.
I believe that if I hadn't played these games my interest would not be the same as it is today. (Then again, I was also brought up correctly and do not think shooting people is a great idea, in spite of what the media would like to think Doom and Duke Nukem 3D will do to you.)
johnsonx - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
you're 23 and played intellivision? I'm 15 years older, and Intellivision was almost (but not quite) before MY time, while I probably saw my last mono-xt around the time you were 6.JarredWalton - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
Yeah, I'm there with you. I played the Intellivision and used mono XT (and AT and PC Jr.), but the last monochrome PC we had must have been in the late 80s at best - more likely around 87. I was 14 at the time, which would make you 3.It appears the Intellivision was officially discontinued in 1991, but it was basically on life support since 1984. He probably just had parents that preferred to go with economical purchases rather than the latest and greatest? :)
Cincybeck - Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - link
I'm 22 turning 23 in November '08. I played Intellivision. Was my dad's. Once I got into playing it he broke down, and bought a NES, not that he didn't want it as well. At home we had a i386 and I logged many hours in Tie-Fighter and X-wing as well as Wolfenstein 3D and later Doom. While at school we still had Apple II's until I was in 4th or 5th grade when they upgraded all the computer lab, computers to Power Macintosh 5500s. They then split the old computers up between the classrooms, and inside recesses were wasted away playing Oregon Trail.kmmatney - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
37 years old, and played Intellivision my dad bought an Intellivision as soon as it came out. I would think if you are 23, then the NES would be the game system you would start out on (or even SNES).DerekWilson - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
i played intellevision and i'm 28 ...Polynikes - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
I mirror your feelings on this subject. (Right down to loving the original Need for Speed, loving driving (and hating automatics) etc.)As far as Rock Band 2 goes, my argument is simple.
How are you gonna be in a rock band, go on tour and put on performances with a video game?
Turin - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/guitar_hero.jpg">http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/guitar_hero.jpgglennpratt - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
This is what you should've linked to.http://xkcd.com/359/">http://xkcd.com/359/
It's what popped in my head while reading this article.
PS Derek, your over thinking this - you could replace rock band with a million different things in you argument, and none of them make sense.
DerekWilson - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
xkcd rules ... and that's an awesome one ... but aren't there already songs in there like that? :-PNatfly - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
good questionFinally - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
Another good question:Quote: As parents we have the responsibility to make sure our children understand reality and are able to function within the context of our current society.
"Hey, have you seen my new kid-machine 2.0?"
"Yeah, it runs neato, cause yesterday I overclocked it to HumanSpeech, release 7"
"Oh, really? Mine didn't function that well in our current society so I gave it to a recycling guy. Maybe he can use the spare parts."
DerekWilson - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link
Yeah sorry -- I slipped and hit the wrong button -- the blog post went live with a title of "Why" and no text for a few minutes. My bad.